Hi Apostolis,<br><br>I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to me that any form of ownership and distribution would risk inequality, and that therefore, active regulatory rules and measures would always be needed in addition.<br>
<br>I think both marxist interpretations of exploitation in production, and gesellian ones on exploitation in the spher<b>e of distribution through money, have merit</b> (certainly today, with profit margins in production being marginal, exploitation seems mostly financial ..) ... Therefore it seems to me, an integrative approach in necessary, which includes transformation in the design of money and the financial system. Ancient Greeks during the polis, and I heard, free medieval cities had active measures against accumulation of power and money. Though they ultimately all lost out, they functioned for relatively long periods.<br>
<br>I suppose that measures around forbidding or limiting interest would work,<br><br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Yes I am also in favor of unalienable consumer or citizen shares, but in every new creation of �means of production due to those very small differences in reward( and for many other personal reasons_spending), it is possible after a long period of time that one group of people would loan their money to the other group. with favorable terms to the lenders . Those loans for the creation of the means of production have the effect of magnifying the inequalities.�<div>
<br></div><div>In all cases, the consumers or citizens together with the workers control the means of production.</div><div><br></div><div>So to put my ideas in your example, a citizen might not be able to pay a specific amount to retain his percentage in case the cooperative needs to raise capital. He would have to make a loan.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I cant really understand how unalienable shares might help. I know that the starndard marxist theory says that profit is gained through the control of the means of prod. Here the consumers and workers control the means fo prod. but the lenders obtain profit.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Is there a mistake in my assumptions?</div><div><br></div><div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/10/25 Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Tom, perhaps you could present this essay on our p2p blog?<div><div></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 AM, Sandwichman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lumpoflabor@gmail.com" target="_blank">lumpoflabor@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">People may be interested in the "conventional economic theory" about transaction costs. I've done a bit of work on this in response to reviewer comments on a paper I wrote. The reviewer suggested that I should contextualize� my analysis (of working time and productivity) as to how it related to mainstream theory. This struck me as somewhat odd because I am dealing with what I have already identified as a gaping hole in conventional theory. Be that as it may, I traced the broken threads of mainstream theory back to where they were cut and I think the result is a blistering, albeit calmly presented, indictment of the mainstream.<br>
<br><a href="http://ecologicalheadstand.blogspot.com/p/problem-with-problem-of-social-cost.html" target="_blank">http://ecologicalheadstand.blogspot.com/p/problem-with-problem-of-social-cost.html</a><br><br>
Essentially, mainstream economic models are constructed on the premise that things like transaction costs, overhead costs, external economies and social costs are "incidentals" that can be assumed away as a simplification and then added back into the equation at a later stage in the analysis. On the contrary, these things are central to the economic processes of production and exchange in a market economy. Furthermore, this centrality was well known to pioneers of neoclassical economic analysis and was a keystone of their methodology. <br>
<div><div></div><div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
what I find interesting about it is that it gives an objective grounding to the trend towards distributed ownership.<br><br>While I'm not opposed to collective pr<b>operty and obviously not to the commons, I think that distributed individual property of productive forces will be an important part of a future social order, as it extends the contributory logic of p2p to the physical world.</b><br>
<br>That an individual can freely constitute collective capital by aggregating and disaggregating his own 'citizen share' of the productive forces has everything to do with peer production and the commons, since it opens the possibility of fr<b>eely creating 'common stock' comm</b><b>ons.<br>
<br>I h</b>ave no knowledge of current possibilities of having access to productive forces for free ?<br><b><br>Michel<br></b><div><div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Karl Robillard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:krobillard@san.rr.com" target="_blank">krobillard@san.rr.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Michel,<br>
<br>
Your blog posting of Matt Cropp's ideas about the fall in transaction costs<br>
states in bold:<br>
<br>
�"THIS IS A MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT AND CRUCIAL ASPECT OF THE �P2P<br>
Revolution�!!"<br>
<br>
Why do you think it's so important? Currency systems are about tracking<br>
ownership and subjective value perception rather than providing open access<br>
and accurately tracking production inputs and outputs. �It seems to me it has<br>
almost nothing to do with open source, the commons, or peer production.<br>
<br>
Why would anyone want to "micro-own" parts of something when they could get<br>
access to the whole for free? �Matt closes by saying that technology "could be<br>
paving the way towards the age of the co-operative". �This is history already<br>
- there is no "could be" about it.<br>
<br>
<br>
-Karl<br>
<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br></div></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse;"><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></pre><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
Sincerely yours, </pre><pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre></span><br>
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