I think there is a matter of semantics ... Natalie seems to refer to ron paul supporters, and while we may disagree, they are not the same as what other people understand under Tea Parties ... in my opinion, to retain that moniker, and thus inviting to be equated with the real dangerous plutocratic and fascist forces, is a r<b>eal mistake,<br>
<br>ralph nader did succeed in having some common ground with ron paul, and he would not work with fascists ...<br><br>Michel<br></b><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Gordon-There are many diverse groups of people living in the US that
distrust-even hate each other.Are you saying that armed conflict is unavoidable.
The Tea Partiers aren�t all the same just as OWS has factions. All the
extremists are coming out now to prevent any agreement on anything. </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="cook@cookreport.com" href="mailto:cook@cookreport.com" target="_blank">Gordon Cook</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:32 PM</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation mailing
list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div><span style="text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; font: medium helvetica; white-space: normal; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); word-spacing: 0px;">Michel <br></span><br></div>
<div>I REALLY recommend this video</div>
<div>�</div>
<div><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uz5RxhahHK0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uz5RxhahHK0</a>
</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>in which Chris Hedges explains� why the tea partiers are the new
american FASCISTs./� They will be happy to be the goon squads for the
interests of the corporatists</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>also take a look at <a href="http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-rick-santelli-sucking-koch/" target="_blank">http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-rick-santelli-sucking-koch/</a></div>
<div>�</div>
<div><a href="http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/17/chomsky-on-tea-party-dark-clouds-of-fascism-gathering/" target="_blank">http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/17/chomsky-on-tea-party-dark-clouds-of-fascism-gathering/</a></div>
<div>�</div>
<div>It would be a catstrophy to "join forces"</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>the american public at this point is not too sophisticated� this one
commonality you speak of could cause all the other DIFFERENCES that are far more
important than the commonality.�� They should not� get
muddied.</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>Here is another interesting discovery i made</div>
<div>�</div>
<div><a href="http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-followers-are-scarier-than-the-manson-family-and-the-gruesome-story-of-the-serial-killer-who-stole-ayn-rands-heart/" target="_blank">http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-followers-are-scarier-than-the-manson-family-and-the-gruesome-story-of-the-serial-killer-who-stole-ayn-rands-heart/</a></div>
<div>�</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>
<div>On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:</div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">hi Natalie,<br><br>concerning the ows / tea party
post,<br><br>I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition
between people on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic
movement that is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining
middle classes blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be
overcome through real-life dialogue. <br><br>At #ows, there are people who say
they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of the occupation, such as
Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily denouncing the occupation as a
communist plot ... in general, Tea Party identified republicans are totally
opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm guessing that with people like
ron paul, agreement may be possible on very closely defined issues
...<br><br>Michel<br><br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some
point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I�m very
interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization
and I�m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I�ve been
reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50
years, so I�m guessing you guessed wrong.</div>
<div>Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge�s post
on OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand
social & certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a
large center overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join
forces?</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P
Foundation mailing list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>Hi Nalatie,<br><br>I respect that you are finished with the
subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans
didn't invent warfare and oppression.<br><br>Nevertheless, I think you
underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in
large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most
other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the
rulers changed in tr<b>ibuta</b>ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in
place.<br><br>Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were
possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you
claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were
integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly
very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons.
You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the
whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the
scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history
of human oppression.<br><br>Also you may find mp aggressive in his
accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than
you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being
patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.<br><br>Michel<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I
mentioned earlier-people<br>live in their own times. It's the 21st century
and there is no vacant land<br>left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US
citizens or those from Central<br>America to move in and
"homestead"<br>The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they
treated each<br>other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the
17th & 18th<br>centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the
plains wars when<br>growing Federal power & powerful economic
interests got involved. There were<br>also violent hostilities among
ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this<br>subject mp READ<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: mp<br>Sent: Sunday,
October 23, 2011 6:27 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a><br>Subject: Re:
[P2P-F] Fw: Info<br><br><br>borders? Thought you wanted them
polices/militarized, whereas Kevin<br>argues they should be
open?<br><br>On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:<br>> Agreed-that
was easy.<br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Kevin
Carson<br>> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM<br>> To: P2P
Foundation mailing list<br>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw:
Info<br>><br>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie
Golovin<<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>><br>> wrote:<br>>> Going
back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of<br>>>
interplay<br>>> among various groups of both tribes and migrating
Europeans (subgroup<br>>> religions) at a time when
communication/transportation and historical<br>>> knowledge re
different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today.<br>>>
I<br>>> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths.
The<br>>> interactions<br>>> were very diverse and many mostly
local until the mid 19th Century (Big<br>>>
exception-French&� Indian War) Spanish, French&� English
migrants<br>>> interacted<br>>> very differently with the
tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about<br>>> when
economic&� political forces join hands.<br>><br>> Actually,
I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead<br>> vacant
land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis.<br>> What
I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property<br>>
of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds,<br>>
wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to<br>>
homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of
need<br>> (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient
technical<br>> exploitation of the land.� The natives, in general,
were usually<br>> amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't
actually using --<br>> I don't think they had a collective right to
exclude people from using<br>> vacant land they weren't using
themselves, any more than native<br>> citizens today have a collective
ownership over land that a Mexican<br>> national might like to move
onto.<br>><br>>> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get
in trouble with my Hard<br>>> Left<br>>> friends when I side
with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about<br>>>
school,� get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These
girls<br>>> value<br>>> family and love more than future
prospects of good jobs&� I think that's<br>>> fine. BTW I
worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of
years&<br>>> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough
neighborhoods.<br>><br>> I consider myself pretty hard left, and I
can't imagine why anyone<br>> would get bent out of shape by
that.� Anyone who wants to bully girls<br>> like that into having
abortions against their own judgment or<br>> inclination seriously
needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum:� the<br>> world would be
a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day<br>> and minded
their own goddamned business.<br>><br><br>--<br>NOT sent from a
flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like
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