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<DIV>Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some point.
This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very interested in P2P
posts re new currencies and social/political organization and I’m sorry I popped
in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading voraciously both in the
academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so I’m guessing you guessed
wrong.</DIV>
<DIV>Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on
OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social
& certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center
overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=michel@p2pfoundation.net
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">P2P Foundation mailing
list</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Hi
Nalatie,<BR><BR>I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and
that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and
oppression.<BR><BR>Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this
near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics
which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place
for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tr<B>ibuta</B>ry systems,
the farmers were usually kept in place.<BR><BR>Even within the capitalist
dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to
the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely
survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were
undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the
anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully
by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words,
the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history
of human oppression.<BR><BR>Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations,
but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The
differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient
amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned
earlier-people<BR>live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is
no vacant land<BR>left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or
those from Central<BR>America to move in and "homestead"<BR>The European
Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each<BR>other. What
started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th<BR>centuries
turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when<BR>growing
Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There
were<BR>also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with
this<BR>subject mp READ<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: mp<BR>Sent: Sunday,
October 23, 2011 6:27 AM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</A><BR>Subject:
Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info<BR><BR><BR>borders? Thought you wanted them
polices/militarized, whereas Kevin<BR>argues they should be open?<BR><BR>On
22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:<BR>> Agreed-that was
easy.<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: Kevin
Carson<BR>> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM<BR>> To: P2P
Foundation mailing list<BR>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info<BR>><BR>>
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<<A
href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</A>><BR>>
wrote:<BR>>> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250
years of<BR>>> interplay<BR>>> among various groups of both tribes
and migrating Europeans (subgroup<BR>>> religions) at a time when
communication/transportation and historical<BR>>> knowledge re different
civilizations was quite wanting compared to today.<BR>>> I<BR>>>
already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The<BR>>>
interactions<BR>>> were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid
19th Century (Big<BR>>> exception-French& Indian War) Spanish,
French& English migrants<BR>>> interacted<BR>>> very
differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come
about<BR>>> when economic& political forces join
hands.<BR>><BR>> Actually, I don't dispute the right of European
settlers to homestead<BR>> vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on
an individual basis.<BR>> What I was responding to was your suggestion that
the common property<BR>> of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as
hunting grounds,<BR>> wasn't "real property" and that European settlers
were entitled to<BR>> homestead land in such collective use on the grounds
either of need<BR>> (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient
technical<BR>> exploitation of the land. The natives, in general,
were usually<BR>> amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't
actually using --<BR>> I don't think they had a collective right to exclude
people from using<BR>> vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more
than native<BR>> citizens today have a collective ownership over land that
a Mexican<BR>> national might like to move onto.<BR>><BR>>> As to
"White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard<BR>>>
Left<BR>>> friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't
care about<BR>>> school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse
abortion. These girls<BR>>> value<BR>>> family and love more than
future prospects of good jobs& I think that's<BR>>> fine. BTW
I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years&<BR>>>
understand the problems of growing up poor in rough
neighborhoods.<BR>><BR>> I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't
imagine why anyone<BR>> would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone
who wants to bully girls<BR>> like that into having abortions against their
own judgment or<BR>> inclination seriously needs to consider Willie
Nelson's dictum: the<BR>> world would be a better place if everybody
smoked a joint every day<BR>> and minded their own goddamned
business.<BR>><BR><BR>--<BR>NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause
I like birds...<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
Foundation - Mailing list<BR><A href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
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target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>P2P
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target=_blank>http://www.p2pfoundation.net</A><BR><A
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target=_blank>https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>P2P Foundation: <A href="http://p2pfoundation.net"
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