This is a difficult debate for me Tadit, as I have never truly studied MMT, and what kind of money is best.<br><br>I'd like to posit some general principles as to what a commons/p2p friendly policy would be ...<br><br>
- first of all, I think monetary freedom is important, which for me means that next to sovereign money that is governed by the collective, and we need at least a national and global level, we also must accept community-driven 'socially sovereign' money ... so repression of successful local money by the state is not acceptable<br>
<br>- money should be a commons, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it should not be subjected to speculation, and is a public utility that should be protected from private misuse ...; how exactly can we make money into a commons, that is an important question for me, in which I would like to be educated ; instinctevely I'm against the private for-profit creation of money as it is currently practiced<br>
<br>- third, money has a design, and that design should be a design that does not permit excessive accumulation, nor require infinite growth<br><br>before encountering MMT, the people I listened to were:<br><br>* Bernard Lietaer, because of his recognition of all the levels, and his effort to have an answer for each level<br>
<br>* Thomas Greco, and his idea for local credit commons, based on the real interactions of local players; weakness here is that it can't be applied rapidly enough in national crisis situations<br><br>and this is why I liked the approach of Ellen Brown, because of her insistence, with many documented examples of the past, that people-friendly governments can issue money as a productive investment, and that it is not inflationary in such circumstances<br>
<br>to summarize:<br><br>- a pluralist money system that can operate on local, regional, national, and global levels, issued by either sovereign states or local or affinity communities<br><br>- conceived as a commons / public utility that cannot be manipulated by private interests<br>
<br>- designed in such a way that it does not create negative social and natural externalities (counter-example: bitcoin is socially sovereign but has the wrong design)<br><br>Perhaps if you have time one day, you could write about how you see money as a commons, and how MMT stacks up against these contemporary 'p2p' driven demands<br>
<br>One question for MMT, what kind of government would want to implement this?<br><br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
------- Forwarded message -------<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net" target="_blank">ideasinc@ee.net</a><br>
To: p2p-foundation <<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation@lists.<u></u>ourproject.org</a>>, "Michel Bauwens" <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:chris@cataspanglish.com" target="_blank">chris@cataspanglish.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] money as debt p. 2<br>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:20:51 -0400<br>
<br>
Thank you, -Michel<br>
<br>
I watched the entire video, and have seen Money as Debt One several<br>
times. First, the sophistication of Grignon understanding of economics has<br>
greatly expanded. There are a few quibbles in details and the development<br>
and identification. He is advocating for a version of MMT/FF. He never<br>
actually addresses the state origin of money per se, and it is a major<br>
objective. He never explicitly defines money as a COMMONS, and it is<br>
central to his narrative.<br>
<br>
You will have to excuse me on two points of irony. Grignon mentions both<br>
the Money Masters crew and the American Monetary institute, and he never<br>
mentions MMT/FF or any of the participants in that discourse. It is a bit<br>
like rolling out a plan and then not giving credit to the community which<br>
has co-developed that bundle of ideas and principles. Not posing the<br>
MMT/FF position as a legitimate participant in this immediate discussion<br>
becomes a significant problem for me. The MMT/FF position on monetary<br>
reform is actually the discovery that the bus named "Our Economy" actually<br>
has a steering wheel and other control features. The advocacy of monetary<br>
reform ends up being a bit pointless unless there is a substantial body of<br>
practice that can propose new policies and move toward new fiscal<br>
objectives.<br>
<br>
To a large degree, MMT/FF is what we can do with monetary reform that<br>
reoccupies the currency commons being held as a privately held franchise.<br>
The MMT/FF people are also of the opinion that new major legislation is<br>
not necessary, the reforms that are needed could be done as easily as US<br>
Pres. Nixon closing the Gold window in 1971 by executive order. Most of<br>
the banking process that would be necessary to support the MMT/FF<br>
instrumental process as already established though currently under private<br>
franchise.<br>
<br>
The MMT/FF people seem to feel that the move for legislation, is more of<br>
an educational and political strategy toward a public discourse, not<br>
necessarily having a value in the literal reform agenda. In his roll out<br>
of "alternatives" he mentions LETS (1.0) and Timebanks, which are<br>
specifically debt based exchange models. They are credit union based, in a<br>
sense, currencies that operate under banking laws and conventions. In that<br>
there is a strong similarity between credit unions/thifts and debt based<br>
"alternatives," it would likely be that there could be a legal point here<br>
that debt based "alternatives" should be placed under the same banking<br>
legislation and regulations. Operating across national boundaries would<br>
seem to attract the same sort of scrutiny as is being given the hawala<br>
networks.<br>
<br>
The second irony here for me is that although Grignon seems to advocate<br>
for MMT/FF practices and principles, that energy is primarily directed<br>
toward debt based alternatives. The CRX becomes a sort of missing link in<br>
the process and in the discourse of what alternatives are possible. To<br>
rely so much upon the MMT/FF discourse only tacitly acknowledged, and then<br>
channeling reform energies into the centralization of electoral politics<br>
and toward debt based semi-alternatives does not seem particularly<br>
progressive in detail. There are nuances of the word "Open" that seem to<br>
be absent in the named cast of participants. Perhaps there will be a<br>
"Money As Debt III: Money as Asset/Sustainable Economics".<br>
<br>
as we go, Tadit<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 03:43:07 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
<<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsmbWBpnCNk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?<u></u>v=lsmbWBpnCNk</a><br>
<br>
hi chris, could you embed this with the youtube abstact, post-date oct 25 or<br>
after,<br>
<br>
perhaps Tadit could offer an extra comment to add to it,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
</blockquote>
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