Hi Natalie,<br><br>In my conception, equality is the condition for liberty and vice versa. How can you be free, when others are enslaved? Previous political eras mostly saw them as opposed, and this is pretty much what the struggle between socialism and liberalism was interpreted as being about, but in my opinion, and for an increased number of others, they have to be held together.<br>
<br>But perhaps you think of equality as sameness, etc ... Defining equality is quite complex I guess, with a polarity from equality of opportunity, on the progressive liberal side of things, to a demand for more actual 'real' equality,<br>
<br>see for example, <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality">http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality</a> ; <br>Peer to peer pretty much says it all, if you are unequal, you can't be a peer,<br><br>And why is equality important, especially now with #occupywallstreet, which is a quintessentially egalitarian movement?<br>
<br>First of all, because of this:<br><br>* <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger">http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger</a><br><br>and second, from the horses mouth, the IMF:<br>
<br><span id="descContent_13" class="content">"Speaking of the 99% versus
the 1% - a new report out of the International Monetary Fund finds that
one of the greatest factors for prolonged economic growth in a nation is
a low level of wealth inequality. By reviewing economies around the
world � and looking at economic variables such as political
institutions, debt, and trade � the study found that by far � it�s
wealth inequality that has the greatest effect on sustained economic
growth � and that if nations are made 10% more equitable in their wealth
distribution � then they could see economic growth sustained for 50%
longer. "</span><br>(<a href="http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1">http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1</a>)<br><br>and specially for you, from a libertarian manifesto:<br>
<br><br>
<ul><li> Concern for the downtrodden
</li></ul>
<p>Furthermore concern for the downtrodden follows
from left-libertarian opposition to aggression against
innocents. Those aggressed against- the oppressed- are
just one group of the downtrodden.
</p><p><br>
</p>
<ul><li> Current Distribution of wealth and land
</li></ul>
<p>Following from the previous post the recognition that
current distribution of wealth and land is largely due to
state intervention whether that be barriers to entry or
statist privilege and that just because someone is wealthy
need not mean they achieved it themselves and just
because someone is poor does not mean that they make
bad lifestyle choices.Following from this understanding
we must reject classist prejudices. <br></p><p>(<a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism">http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism</a>)<br></p><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not
human experience.</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM</div><div><div></div><div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation mailing
list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div><div><div></div><div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">It's
not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with
political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ...
however, it is possible<br>to find commonality around practical demands, such as
the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which
should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction
in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with
neither half)<br><br>but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority
of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a
realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market<br>form is not compatible
with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the
mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street
Occupiers<br>but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a
consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common
feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political
forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as
Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the
result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama
administration.<br><br>I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible
with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make� your
view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each
individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ...<br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state
and local levels if the �State� can be made to wither away a little. </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="gurstein@gmail.com" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael gurstein</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">'P2P
Foundation mailing list'</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Hmmm...</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">M</font></span></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font>�</div>
<div>The Libertarianism FAQ<span> <a href="http://catb.org/%7Eesr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6" target="_blank">http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6</a></span></div>
<div><span></span>�</div>
<div><span><a name="132f4388bc59272c_132f0695ef825def_132eb76ea0736a5f_A6">
<h2>A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?</h2></a>
<p>Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can.
About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its
accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law
enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some
might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4
(including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that
"limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law,
order, and security than any goverment monopoly.</p>
<p>Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't
demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be
taken in dismantling it carefully.</p></span></div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original
Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Natalie Golovin<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38
PM<br><b>To:</b> P2P Foundation mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F]
P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37<br><br></font></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren�t for destruction of
govt-they�re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by
the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly
power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the
people.</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="gurstein@gmail.com" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael gurstein</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">'P2P
Foundation mailing list'</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">The problem Natalie is that
the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which
citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess...
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">The corporations aren't
going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and
responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power
in a democracy.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Citizens need a structure
to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify
corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob
and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic
theory.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">The fact that the existing
structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for
exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie
Thatcher would say TINA.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">M</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original
Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Natalie Golovin<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011
3:48 PM<br><b>To:</b> P2P Foundation mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37<br><br></font></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging
capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the
fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make
peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea
baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this
protest to divide & destroy</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="nicholas@themediasociety.org" href="mailto:nicholas@themediasociety.org" target="_blank">Nicholas
Roberts</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;"><br clear="all">there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also
<div>�</div>
<div>especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem
with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these
anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in
the US... </div>
<div>�</div>
<div>too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels,
instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry
critiquing the publications of the movements</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the
USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous,
Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA"</div>
<div>�</div>
<div><span style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: medium;">
<div>
<div>
<h1 style="padding: 0px; margin: 12px 5px 5px 10px; font-family: arial,sans-serif; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span style="padding-right: 10px;">Occupying Occupy
Together</span><span></span></h1>
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<div>
<div style="padding: 4px 8px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
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<img src="" style="min-height: 13px; width: 14px; vertical-align: middle;" title="Reply" alt="Reply"><span style="text-align: center; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; white-space: nowrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Reply</span></div>
</div>
<div style="display: inline-block;">
<div style="border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(160, 160, 160); text-align: center; border-left: 0px solid rgb(187, 187, 187); padding: 3px 8px; border-right-width: 0px ! important; margin: 0px 0px 2px 2px; outline-style: none; min-height: 1.3em; display: inline-block; font: 75% arial,sans-serif; white-space: nowrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<img src="" style="min-height: 7px; width: 7px;" title="More" alt="More"><span></span></div></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<table style="margin-top: 0px; width: auto; border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
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<div style="white-space: nowrap; overflow: hidden;"><span style="outline-width: 0px;"><span><img src="" style="margin-top: 0px; min-height: 15px; width: 15px; vertical-align: top;" alt=""></span></span><span style="vertical-align: top;"><img src="" style="min-height: 16px; width: 16px;" name="132f4388bc59272c_132f0695ef825def_132eb76ea0736a5f_upi" height="16" width="16"></span><span style="display: inline; white-space: nowrap; color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-size: 13px; vertical-align: top; font-weight: bold;">Nicholas
Roberts</span>�<span style="color: rgb(85, 85, 85); vertical-align: top;"><a style="color: rgb(0, 101, 204); vertical-align: top;" href="http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182" target="_blank">via</a>�<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>�</span><span style="vertical-align: top;">to <span style="vertical-align: top;">lbo-talk</span></span></div>
</td></tr></tbody></table></td>
<td style="text-align: right; margin: 0px; font-family: arial,sans-serif; white-space: nowrap; vertical-align: top;">
<div style="padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 0px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 101, 204); vertical-align: top; text-decoration: underline;">show
details</span>�<span style="vertical-align: top; margin-right: 3px;" title="Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 PM" alt="Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 PM">12:29 PM (25 minutes
ago)</span><span></span></div></td>
<td style="text-align: right; margin: 0px; font-family: arial,sans-serif; white-space: nowrap; vertical-align: top;"></td></tr></tbody></table></div>
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<div></div>
<div style="padding-bottom: 20px; margin: 5px 15px; font-size: 13px;">
<div>can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals.�
<div>�</div>
<div>get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering
and get involved in the process</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often
foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure
of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc
etc etc etc etc</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an
organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy,
uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit
sandwhich of Amercian life</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening
worth participating in</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO
HELP</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div>
<div>
<div>�</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote"><br>Today's Topics:<br><br>� 1. Re: Fw: Cheap
"Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)</blockquote></div></div>
<hr>
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