hi Natalie,<br><br>do gooders vs savages to be contained <br><br>seems to me part of the same classic opposition which could attain a higher integrative level,<br><br>for example in p2p, I would say humans are seen as complex beings with both positive and negative characteristics in a dynamic balance,<br>
<br>the answer is neither a system based on exploiting greed and self-interest and discouraging other expressions, as we have in the current neoliberal system, nor a system based on the belief that everybody is just simply innately good,<br>
<br>but to create societies and social systems where the individual motivation and interest is aligned with the collective common good, not as an assumption (invisible hand), but as a 'designed'in' realitiy (the visible hand of wikipedia, linux, etc ..).<br>
<br>Current p2p systems are based on Equipotentiality (see p2p wiki), but don't answer the wider injustices. Inequality is the main feeding system for injustice, and if not tackled leads to very exploitative societies, such as the one #OSW protesters are mobilizing against<br>
<br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>Hello Michel-I see people born unequal physically (including mental
capacities/many different intelligences) and developing even more so with
differences in nurturing, family circumstances, culture, experience, accident,
etc. Inequality� can often be useful in directing talents to activities
needed by the larger social entity. And these needs change over time in complex
societies. Ethical governments work for equal opportunity and demand equal
justice. That�s a tall order in itself as govts are composed of humans which can
be tempted to work for themselves or subgroups. I believe there is an innate
tribal instinct that persists, which makes it even more difficult for govts to
function effectively in highly diverse populations. Socialism seems to work
better in small, homogeneous nations. I see peers as cohort groups not as some
kind of existential equivalents. Equality as a condition for liberty makes sense
to me only as it pertains to a segment you�re holding constant. For example,
citizens in Republican Rome were more equal in liberty (even though many termed
non-citizens lived as slaves) than the citizens of a modern US state with all
its legal protections. I think you�re expecting too much from govt. Our
differences may be based on the contrary assumptions of whether we�re beasts
that must be prevented from doing harm or Rousseau�s kind savages that just need
an opportunity to do good. That�s the basic political split. My impressions from
history point to the former view with hopeful allowances for the evolution of
people & their govts.</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div><font face="Calibri" size="3"></font>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:41 AM</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation mailing
list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">Hi
Natalie,<br><br>In my conception, equality is the condition for liberty and vice
versa. How can you be free, when others are enslaved? Previous political eras
mostly saw them as opposed, and this is pretty much what the struggle between
socialism and liberalism was interpreted as being about, but in my opinion, and
for an increased number of others, they have to be held together.<br><br>But
perhaps you think of equality as sameness, etc ... Defining equality is quite
complex I guess, with a polarity from equality of opportunity, on the
progressive liberal side of things, to a demand for more actual 'real'
equality,<br><br>see for example, <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality</a>
; <br>Peer to peer pretty much says it all, if you are unequal, you can't be a
peer,<br><br>And why is equality important, especially now with
#occupywallstreet, which is a quintessentially egalitarian
movement?<br><br>First of all, because of this:<br><br>* <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger</a><br>
<br>and
second, from the horses mouth, the IMF:<br><br><span>"Speaking of the 99% versus the 1% - a new report out of the
International Monetary Fund finds that one of the greatest factors for prolonged
economic growth in a nation is a low level of wealth inequality. By reviewing
economies around the world � and looking at economic variables such as political
institutions, debt, and trade � the study found that by far � it�s wealth
inequality that has the greatest effect on sustained economic growth � and that
if nations are made 10% more equitable in their wealth distribution � then they
could see economic growth sustained for 50% longer. "</span><br>(<a href="http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1" target="_blank">http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1</a>)<br>
<br>and
specially for you, from a libertarian manifesto:<br><br><br>
<ul>
<li>Concern for the downtrodden </li></ul>
<p>Furthermore concern for the downtrodden follows from left-libertarian
opposition to aggression against innocents. Those aggressed against- the
oppressed- are just one group of the downtrodden. </p>
<p>�</p>
<ul>
<li>Current Distribution of wealth and land </li></ul>
<p>Following from the previous post the recognition that current distribution of
wealth and land is largely due to state intervention whether that be barriers to
entry or statist privilege and that just because someone is wealthy need not
mean they achieved it themselves and just because someone is poor does not mean
that they make bad lifestyle choices.Following from this understanding we must
reject classist prejudices. <br></p>
<p>(<a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism</a>)<br></p><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not
human experience.</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation
mailing list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">It's
not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances
with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ...
however, it is possible<br>to find commonality around practical demands, such
as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause,
which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a
contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being
identified with neither half)<br><br>but It seems to me that Natalie wants the
overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities,
and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market<br>form
is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do
with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the
Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers<br>but with the consensus of the general
assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the
very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political
demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as
frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent
compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the
permanent failure of the Obama administration.<br><br>I would say, focus on
the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in
the assemblies to make� your view heard ... as I understand it's a
non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard,
as an individual ...<br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the
state and local levels if the �State� can be made to wither away a little.
</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="gurstein@gmail.com" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael gurstein</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">'P2P
Foundation mailing list'</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Hmmm...</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">M</font></span></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font>�</div>
<div>The Libertarianism FAQ<span> <a href="http://catb.org/%7Eesr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6" target="_blank">http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6</a></span></div>
<div><span></span>�</div>
<div><span><a name="132f539568c92381_132f4388bc59272c_132f0695ef825def_132eb76ea0736a5f_A6">
<h2>A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?</h2></a>
<p>Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can.
About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its
accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law
enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays
some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The
other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who
believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can
provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.</p>
<p>Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't
demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must
be taken in dismantling it carefully.</p></span></div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original
Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Natalie Golovin<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011
4:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> P2P Foundation mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37<br><br></font></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren�t for destruction of
govt-they�re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided
by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global
monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to
the people.</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="gurstein@gmail.com" href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael gurstein</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">'P2P
Foundation mailing list'</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">The problem Natalie is
that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through
which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess...
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">The corporations aren't
going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and
responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their
power in a democracy.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Citizens need a structure
to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and
sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall
Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic
theory.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">The fact that the
existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them
suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term
but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">M</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Natalie Golovin<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011
3:48 PM<br><b>To:</b> P2P Foundation mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37<br><br></font></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">
<div>You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging
capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against
the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to
make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate
tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this
protest to divide & destroy</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma;">
<div>�</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="nicholas@themediasociety.org" href="mailto:nicholas@themediasociety.org" target="_blank">Nicholas
Roberts</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</div></div></div>
<div>�</div></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;"><br clear="all">there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also
<div>�</div>
<div>especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big
problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these
anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display
in the US... </div>
<div>�</div>
<div>too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food
parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini
industry critiquing the publications of the movements</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in
the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real,
Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the
USA"</div>
<div>�</div>
<div><span style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: medium;">
<div>
<div>
<h1 style="padding: 0px; margin: 12px 5px 5px 10px; font-family: arial,sans-serif; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px;"><span style="padding-right: 10px;">Occupying Occupy
Together</span><span></span></h1>
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<div>
<div style="padding: 4px 8px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
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<div style="padding-left: 1px; display: inline; float: right; overflow: hidden;">
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<div style="border: 1px solid; text-align: center; padding: 3px 8px; margin: 0px 0px 2px 2px; outline-style: none; min-height: 1.3em; display: inline-block; font: 75% arial,sans-serif; white-space: nowrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); vertical-align: middle;">
<img src="" style="min-height: 13px; width: 14px; vertical-align: middle;" title="Reply" alt="Reply"><span style="text-align: center; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; white-space: nowrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Reply</span></div>
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<div style="border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(160, 160, 160); text-align: center; border-left: 0px solid rgb(187, 187, 187); padding: 3px 8px; border-right-width: 0px ! important; margin: 0px 0px 2px 2px; outline-style: none; min-height: 1.3em; display: inline-block; font: 75% arial,sans-serif; white-space: nowrap; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<img src="" style="min-height: 7px; width: 7px;" title="More" alt="More"><span></span></div></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<table style="margin-top: 0px; width: auto; border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
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<tbody>
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<td style="margin: 0px; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="white-space: nowrap; overflow: hidden;"><span style="outline-width: 0px;"><span><img src="" style="margin-top: 0px; min-height: 15px; width: 15px; vertical-align: top;" alt=""></span></span><span style="vertical-align: top;"><img src="" style="min-height: 16px; width: 16px;" name="132f539568c92381_132f4388bc59272c_132f0695ef825def_132eb76ea0736a5f_upi" height="16" width="16"></span><span style="display: inline; white-space: nowrap; color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-size: 13px; vertical-align: top; font-weight: bold;">Nicholas
Roberts</span>�<span style="color: rgb(85, 85, 85); vertical-align: top;"><a style="color: rgb(0, 101, 204); vertical-align: top;" href="http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182" target="_blank">via</a>�<a href="http://gmail.com" target="_blank">gmail.com</a>�</span><span style="vertical-align: top;">to <span style="vertical-align: top;">lbo-talk</span></span></div>
</td></tr></tbody></table></td>
<td style="text-align: right; margin: 0px; font-family: arial,sans-serif; white-space: nowrap; vertical-align: top;">
<div style="padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 0px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 101, 204); vertical-align: top; text-decoration: underline;">show
details</span>�<span style="vertical-align: top; margin-right: 3px;" title="Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 PM" alt="Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 PM">12:29 PM (25 minutes
ago)</span><span></span></div></td>
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<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style="padding-bottom: 20px; margin: 5px 15px; font-size: 13px;">
<div>can I just make a general swing at the keyboard
intellectuals.�
<div>�</div>
<div>get of your arses and get down the places where people are
gathering and get involved in the process</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often
foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the
failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the
institutions etc etc etc etc etc</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an
organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy,
uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the
shit sandwhich of Amercian life</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening
worth participating in</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO
HELP</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div>
<div>
<div>�</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote"><br>Today's Topics:<br><br>� 1. Re: Fw: Cheap
"Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)</blockquote></div></div>
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