hi Tadit,<br><br>thanks for the explanations,<br><br>just wondering what you mean by Matthew forcing a debt-based process?<br><br>just to make sure I don't misunderstand: was it that he rerquesting 'regular' monetary payment, and that you proposed another arrangement?<br>
<br>I think it would also be useful to present in general the idea of debt-free arrangements or debt-free money.<br><br>I understand that you are convinced you have with MMT a complex and correct understanding of monetary economics, but can this really be a requirement for dialogue? As tiring as it may be to explain again and again, isn't that really the only way.<br>
<br>Now perhaps I should be reading Wray, but also I should be reading Nikos Salingaros, perhaps even people I really don't want to read such as Lacan or Derrida, but I can't possible read everything that I should or asked to, and I think a lot of people would be in the same situation. Possibly these are very compelling propositions, but convincing people must start with micro-dialogues ...<br>
<br>I know Thomas quite well since he visits me regularly here in Chiangmai, while I disagree with the libertarian bent, again, here is a person who has sincerely studied a complex subject for several decades, has a proposal for mutual credit commons that is well respected amongst the grassroots, that is perhaps limited to local and regional projects but immediately usage, and is all but a hack, living very modestly. That he writes a review of a book he disagrees with, and points to his own different tack, I don't see anything illegitimate in that, especially when it is open and transparent.<br>
<br>From my point of view, it's always more interesting to learn why a person is wrong in ideas or practices through arguments, rather than presuming the differences arise from fraud or any other personal quality.<br>
<br>People like Thomas and Matthew can certainly not rely on any public relations, they are just presenting their own point of view, however flawed or right it might be.<br><br>Michel<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:42 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Here's the nub of it. Yes, the Community Forge may be working their<br>
collective asses off, perhaps. And two points stand out for me. First, we,<br>
locally, went through an extensive process of attempting to work with him<br>
and his crew toward adapting the programming from their utility. A piece<br>
of our intent being that we have been working to establish an MMT/FF based<br>
community exchange utility. My major complaint with the model being used<br>
to define the Community Forge is that it is a debt based process, and<br>
thereby a version of the same sort of relationships as being exploited by<br>
the banksters. I provided links to the summaries of the economic model we<br>
wanted to use, and basically we were brushed off. The ere were basic<br>
elements of the process which could have been reused, and we are intent on<br>
putting together was substantially different from the libertarian lite<br>
variety of Thomas Greco's "Free Banking" advocacy. We were prepared to<br>
adapt their system into a debt-free exchange system. At the bare minimum<br>
there is a value to having multiple alternatives.<br>
<br>
So, if you have a plumbing problem, who do you call? A programmer? Aside<br>
from the unwillingness to work out a constructive solution mutually<br>
beneficial to all, we were presented with the sole option of using the<br>
debt based model and paying for remote hosting. The side point is that<br>
pop-level economics persists primarily by its self righteousness, and that<br>
most of the advocates remain steadfastly unwilling to do the homework<br>
obliged to actually judge the value of an informed economic/monetary model.<br>
<br>
In this case the assumption that "hard Work" entitles anyone to just<br>
compensation, when the core information/principles reproduce the same<br>
problems and at a level of no regulation or standards at all Much like<br>
hiring a contractor that makes it a habit to ignore building codes and<br>
standards. How does the abuse of the adjective "Protest" in any validate<br>
the content and principles of the economic model, except to exploit good<br>
will whenever possible? It is primarily a branding strategy, selling<br>
substantively second rate economics. This is a disjunction between<br>
appearances and functionality.<br>
<br>
A further bit of nonsense from Matthew Slater came from him posting upon<br>
the major MMT/FF blog in the US, New Economic Perspectives, critical of<br>
Randall Wray's explanation of a piece of banking practices and monetary<br>
theory. Wray was much too reserved to bother taking Slater's (signed as<br>
Matslat) comment to task. I posted an entry describing Slater's level of<br>
interest and investment, and alerted the person there who monitors that<br>
blog. The audacity to flame a group involved in a serious discussion for<br>
no good reason, is a form of trolling<br>
<br>
Add another piece and tactic, this one is on Thomas Greco. Go to the US<br>
Amazon.com page, search The Lost Science of Money BY Stephen Zarlenga. Go<br>
into the comments/reviews and one of the earliest reviews was from Thomas<br>
Greco who gave a highly critical review. Ordinarily that would not be an<br>
issue, BUT because Greco used that context to also promote his own<br>
material, this became a major conflict of interest favoring self interest.<br>
If you are familiar with Zarlenga's book it may have a few flaws, but he<br>
did a massive job of putting a lot of monetary history in one place.<br>
<br>
On another level I am short of patience of what I see as fraud, either<br>
intentionally or even unintentionally by a lack of interest in the details<br>
between here and an entitlement based upon dys-education. There has been a<br>
lot of technology which has been replaced by something potentially better,<br>
and it becomes a simple monopoly sustained by public relations rhetoric to<br>
obstruct innovation in the favor of a questionable economic model.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tadit<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:02:55 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> not only hasn't it made Matthew rich, it has rather made him very poor<br>
> ...<br>
> to be clear, Matthew is working his ass off for a better world, and fully<br>
> engaged through personal sacrifice.<br>
><br>
> as much as I appreciate your technical expertise, it seems to me there<br>
> is an<br>
> underlying tendency to personalize the criticisms as flaws in the person<br>
> that is critiqued, for example assuming that Ellen Brown was financed by<br>
> the<br>
> banking cartel, while nothing could be further from the truth ..<br>
><br>
> I think we can air our grievances and critiques without necessarily<br>
> imputing<br>
> ill will to those we disagree with ... (I'll make an exception for the<br>
> banksters myself <g>, in view of overwhelming evidence ... but I haven't<br>
> seen evidence of malfeasance in people like Ellen and Matthew)<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:02 PM, Devin Balkind<br>
> <<a href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org">devin@sarapisfoundation.org</a>>wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Tadit. I'm surprised at your response. First, the CommunityForge<br>
>> people<br>
>> have built a workable, free/libre/opensource tool set that makes it<br>
>> easy for<br>
>> groups to start a gifting network and LETs exchange using the popular<br>
>> Drupal<br>
>> CMS. I don't think it's made them rich. Second, the author's idea is<br>
>> general and is basically saying that protesters should start printing<br>
>> currencies and using them as a tool to create discussion around our<br>
>> monetary<br>
>> system. Sounds good to me.<br>
>><br>
>> I've read your posts on this list and recognize that you have a very<br>
>> thoughtful opinion about these issues so I wonder if you could dig a<br>
>> little<br>
>> deeper and explain your response to the group.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:04 AM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> This is to my eye a piece of massive opportunistic self promotion by<br>
>>> the<br>
>>> "Community Forge" people who operate out Geneva, Sw. They press for the<br>
>>> variety of community currencies which they run their business by<br>
>>> hosting<br>
>>> one single variety of community currency, and it is as debt based as<br>
>>> the<br>
>>> federal debt based currencies that they are promoting as "protest<br>
>>> currencies." If all that is available to advocate for such<br>
>>> non-alternatives is that there a tenuous validation by an asserted<br>
>>> association of "Protest" with the rising of resistance, this is a<br>
>>> fraud at<br>
>>> its core.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Tadit<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:37:49 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
>>> > From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <<a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> > Date: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:31 AM<br>
>>> > Subject: "protest currencies" ?<br>
>>> > To:<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > <a href="http://matslats.net/protest_currencies" target="_blank">http://matslats.net/protest_currencies</a><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> ><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>>> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Devin Balkind<br>
>> Director, Sarapis Foundation<br>
>> <a href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org">devin@sarapisfoundation.org</a><br>
>> @devinbalkind<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
>> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
<a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><div>
<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
</div><br>