sorry Stefan,<br><br>I thought you had posted on the list ... I can see now that the system is using my new mailing address, which ends in p2pfoundation and confused me into thinking you had posted this on the list,<br><br>
my apologies for this, it was unintented; and didn't particularly like posting those attacks,<br><br>but I think we better end this argument, both on and off list,<br><br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 2:00 AM, Stefan Merten <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:smerten@oekonux.de">smerten@oekonux.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Michel!<br>
<br>
Well, I really feel sorry for you. You really must be desperate that<br>
you now feel the need to use offending means like posting private<br>
conversations to mailing lists without even asking for permission. I<br>
know you from times when you would not have done things like that :-( .<br>
<br>
Yesterday Michel Bauwens wrote:<br>
> needless to say Stefan, I'm really disappointed by the personal attitude<br>
> that shines true in this reply of yours,<br>
<br>
That is because I was interested in you as a person. Sorry for this.<br>
<br>
> and the refusal for a normal<br>
> conversation with facts, arguments (feelings are also okay, but loading shit<br>
> on another person is not okay).<br>
<br>
We had a normal conversation like you described. You took that normal<br>
conversation personal and left it.<br>
<br>
But probably you consider your contributions to these threads<br>
<br>
� � � �http:///<a href="http://www.oekonux.org/journal/list/archive/msg00701.html" target="_blank">www.oekonux.org/journal/list/archive/msg00701.html</a><br>
� � � �http:///<a href="http://www.oekonux.org/journal/list/archive/msg00752.html" target="_blank">www.oekonux.org/journal/list/archive/msg00752.html</a><br>
<br>
as a normal conversation. Indeed the last conversation we had and I<br>
would have considered normal was not of this type. Seems like that<br>
were better days...<br>
<br>
> So let me be clear that I'm not responding to you, as I have no desire to<br>
> continue this type of exchange, but for the community. Since I could only<br>
> discern one cogent counter-argument, here is my reply to that one:<br>
><br>
> * <in fact all peer production projects *are* self-sustaining. That<br>
> is part of their positive feedback cycle. Probably you are talking of<br>
> something else.><br>
><br>
> Peer production projects can be collectively sustainable by relying on a<br>
> continuous stream on voluntary contributions,<br>
<br>
That was my point.<br>
<br>
> but they do presently not<br>
> sustain their members,<br>
<br>
Of course they do in the areas of the peer production projects. And<br>
besides the members they sustain lots and lots of other persons.<br>
<br>
> who are usually paid by for-profit companies or as<br>
> freelancers on a marketplace ... i.e. the commons is not independently<br>
> sustainable for its members;<br>
<br>
In other words: The new principle didn't replace the old one<br>
completely yet. Of course not.<br>
<br>
When capitalism started with textile industry the feudal structures<br>
for producing food have not been replaced immediately. Demanding what<br>
you demand ignores history.<br>
<br>
> this is why I propose that commoners/peer<br>
> producers create their own structures for a more autonomous cycle of<br>
> reproduction.<br>
<br>
And they do - by extending peer production. We can see this<br>
transformation on a daily basis. Isn't this great? At this point no<br>
additional measure seems to be necessary. And if this changes at some<br>
point it should be measures which are compatible with peer production.<br>
<br>
<br>
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Gr��e<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Stefan<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
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