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<DIV>I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state
and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little. </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=gurstein@gmail.com
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">michael gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">'P2P Foundation mailing
list'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN class=984171601-10102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Hmmm...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984171601-10102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984171601-10102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>M</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>The Libertarianism FAQ<SPAN class=984171601-10102011> <A
href="http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6">http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984171601-10102011></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984171601-10102011><A name=A6>
<H2>A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?</H2></A>
<P>Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can.
About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its
accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law
enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some
might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4
(including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that
"limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law,
order, and security than any goverment monopoly.</P>
<P>Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't
demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be
taken in dismantling it carefully.</P></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org
[mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Natalie Golovin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38
PM<BR><B>To:</B> P2P Foundation mailing list<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F]
P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re
for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in
conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is
restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people.</DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=gurstein@gmail.com
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">michael gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">'P2P Foundation mailing
list'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>The
problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only
modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about
the mess... </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>The
corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a
responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert
their power in a democracy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power.
To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the
shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a
political/economic theory.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>The
fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making
them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term
but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>M</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=231265122-09102011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org
[mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Natalie Golovin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48
PM<BR><B>To:</B> P2P Foundation mailing list<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F]
P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV>You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists
who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and
lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out
there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea
baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest
to divide & destroy</DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=nicholas@themediasociety.org
href="mailto:nicholas@themediasociety.org">Nicholas Roberts</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue
37</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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clear=all>there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem
with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these
anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in
the US... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels,
instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing
the publications of the movements</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the
USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous,
Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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class=ha><SPAN style="PADDING-RIGHT: 10px" id=:1py class=hP>Occupying Occupy
Together</SPAN><SPAN id=:1pz></SPAN></H1>
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class=gD>Nicholas Roberts</SPAN> <SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(85,85,85); VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" class=go><A
style="COLOR: rgb(0,101,204); VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" class=M87awb
href="http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182"
target=_blank>via</A> <A
href="http://gmail.com">gmail.com</A> </SPAN><SPAN
style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" class=hb>to <SPAN
style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top"
class=g2>lbo-talk</SPAN></SPAN></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
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class=iD>show details</SPAN> <SPAN
style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; MARGIN-RIGHT: 3px" id=:2gv class=g3
title="Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 PM"
alt="Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 PM">12:29 PM (25 minutes
ago)</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></DIV></TD>
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<DIV id=:2gs>can I just make a general swing at the keyboard
intellectuals.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering
and get involved in the process</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish
media that comes out of these media events and spectacles</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of
the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc
etc etc etc</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic
intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable
realities of these kinds of democratic actions</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit
sandwhich of Amercian life</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening
worth participating in</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO
HELP</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. Re: Fw: Cheap
"Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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