Michel I know you don't have time to read much less respond to my chatter...<br><br>On Monday, September 12, 2011 1:00:16 AM UTC-5, Michel Bauwens wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">I find the Lilly diagram VERY VERY useful, many thanks, it clearly maps out possible differences in giving value to such experiences ...<br><br>However, I'm agnostic on them, because whatever their ontological status, they are 'real' experiences and have 'real' meaning. So for the the correct consequence is: 1) acknowledging the experience (eye of spirit); 2) discussing their meaning intersubjectively (eye of mind); 3) assessing their ontological status (eye of matter, the 3 mind theory of Lilly).<br></blockquote><div id="{7273B298-E1B6-4A76-9892-114AD862C2F4}"><br>Yeh that sounds pretty sensible. <br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>I would love to read Luminarium, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/books/review/luminarium-by-alex-shakar-book-review.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2011/<wbr>09/04/books/review/luminarium-<wbr>by-alex-shakar-book-review.<wbr>html</a>, which directly investigates those issues ...<br></blockquote><div id="{681001DF-E699-42D9-836E-DE6BCFAFBC17}"><br>I'll check out the review. <br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>ha John Lilly (big bouts of nostalgia) ... yes, Richard that really shows (y)our age <g><br><br>for the young amongst us: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>John_C._Lilly</a> ... can't remember who that was, but I once hadd long conversations with a man who had been Lilly's librarian for years ...<br></blockquote><div id="{D3CFCC17-B2B1-4467-A8C7-620E710E61B1}"><br>I'd love to hear more about that some time. <br></div><br>Now I can't help reminiscing a little about the time with the Lillys at Feathered Pipe Ranch in Montana. I was 19 or 20 maybe. In spare time I studied Tai Chi and Feldenkreis exercises for the first time, with teachers who were there. The big thing of course was the sensory deprivation tank. My first stint was after dark. Leaving the outbuilding that held the tank, the starry, starry night was incredible. It was pretty chilly but I lay down on the ground and gazed at the stars. Then I had one of the most amazing natural head trips of my life. I found I was able to instantiate multiple recursive "selfs". To oversimplify, I could see myself seeing myself seeing myself, etc. My head was never the same after that. But FYI, that time of witnessing my mind the way I would watch a wild animal in the woods, watching without motion, emotion, or thought-- I would not personally call that the eye of the spirit. I might call it core consciousness or something like that.<br><br>Later the Feldenkreis teacher said I was too relaxed. She said, "You aren't supposed to be that relaxed, kid." <br><br>Far out, huh?<br><br>PR<br>