<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>As far as I understand it MMT, an updated incarnation of Chartalism believes that governments can create "enough" new non-repayable debt free money into the economy. If it causes inflation taxation (and presumably interest) can be re-introduced to take out much of the excess capital to avoid serious devaluation of currency.</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div>Ofcourse, MMT cannot compare with TFE which is a much more advanced system...yet similiar to the former.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics<br><span></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif;
font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2" face="Arial"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "ideasinc@ee.net" <ideasinc@ee.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 10 September 2011, 19:13<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [P2P-F] blog FEASTA/MMT/.... bk3 Michel B<br></font><br>OK, I've part of this in a clutch of 5 of my flyers already, a sixth piece <br>would be directed at demonstrating the core commons principles. The back <br>story about is a bit complex but having some knowledge of who Keynes was <br>to macroeconomics. This will contextualize the debate and lack of debate <br>about deficit based debt in a economics should be more about
its <br>performance, than the received dogma. Rocket scientists would not even <br>gain traction under such enclosing of a scientific commons. The <br>financialization of science in all of its domains and beach front <br>properties has diminished itself. Re:establishing the legacies of <br>alternative economic history seems critical, now that there is a bit more <br>impassioned need for a commons based array of choices.<br><br>Randall Wray has developed a primer for MMT that he has been serially <br>producing. I could probably meld it with what I have. My part 1 and part 2 <br>on MMT, came from my review of his book "Understanding Modern Monetary <br>Theory." This should be ready in perhaps a month though I would like to <br>work through an editing process for, as you put it "..a lay audience."<br><br>My personal issue here is with the designation of "lay" versus <br>"professional." What
I mean is that I am in large part an auto-didact, <br>which is a "lay" person performing to "professional" standards. I believe <br>in deschooling as in de-institutionalizing education. I tend to be <br>prejudiced against the distinctions invested in assuming that "lay" cannot <br>be taught to get out of their own way, or that credibility has any direct <br>correspondence time spent interned in institutions of "higher?" learning <br>or even online coursework as a measure of intelligence, sans practice.<br><br>as we go, Tadit<br><br><br><br><br><br>On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:15:49 -0400, Michel Bauwens <br><<a ymailto="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br><br>> Hi Tadit,<br>><br>> perhaps you could start with the general principles of MMT and in<br>> particular, what you call its 'commons' core, and why 'p2p' oriented
<br>> people<br>> should pay attention to it?<br>><br>> perhaps we could use it to write a blog series introducing MMT?<br>><br>> Michel<br>><br>> On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 12:10 AM, <<a ymailto="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net" href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>><br>>> If that is the case then it was mostly likely Prof. Stephanie Kelton. At<br>>> that I would be quite astonished if she ever actually said what you<br>>> thought she said. The Post-Keynesian discourse can be a bit difficult to<br>>> wrap your mind around at first. Yes, you were right to be startled by <br>>> the<br>>> possibility of the whole thing about demand side economics as defined by<br>>> bastard Keynesianism.<br>>><br>>> I have been following their blog for a number of years, and have read I<br>>> expect most of the articles she has written in the past ten years.
I <br>>> hope<br>>> that your prior contact and confusion/revulsion will allow me to work<br>>> through these issue to your satisfaction.<br>>><br>>> One of the stories that goes along with understanding the<br>>> Post-Keynesian/MMT paradigm. To paraphrase a quip from Adolph Lowe to <br>>> the<br>>> effect that neo-classical economics likes to pretend that the economy <br>>> has<br>>> no means of control or influence strategically averting acknowledgement <br>>> of<br>>> the actual effects all effectively intentional and awareness only as it <br>>> is<br>>> convenient. In a sense as if economics was a variety of social quantum<br>>> physics, or that the bus we are on actually has a steering wheel, <br>>> brakes,<br>>> and regulatory functions that can be changed.<br>>><br>>> Ask me all of your MMT question
and I will walk you through its commons<br>>> core. Much of the validation of the countercyclical intervention to<br>>> provide living wage jobs comes from the direct experience of the US<br>>> Depression era government employment initiatives, WPA, CCC,and the NYA.<br>>><br>>> Minsky is a major part of this discourse as well and his economic <br>>> science<br>>> is impeccable relative to the underlying scientific philosophy of <br>>> science.<br>>> Minsky's economics is not based upon any "equilibrium" based economic<br>>> model, just analytic and inductive in the validity, applicability,<br>>> adequacy, and reliability structure of discourse as a dialectic.<br>>><br>>> Tadit<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:08:47 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>>> <<a ymailto="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net"
href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>>><br>>> > It was a blond woman from the uni of missouri and she seemed quite <br>>> smart<br>>> > and<br>>> > central to the core group ..<br>>> ><br>>> > My question was very clear asking to confirm whether they really <br>>> believed<br>>> > that lower taxation directly related to higher economic activity and <br>>> vice<br>>> > versa ..<br>>> ><br>>> > As for Robert remarks on backward thinking ... you can't compare the<br>>> > description of an ideal utopian system, with little chance of being<br>>> > implemented in the near future, with the classic debates on the good <br>>> use<br>>> > of<br>>> > taxation .. that's called 'current thinking' ...<br>>> ><br>>> > Within the current
context and power relations, progressive taxation <br>>> and<br>>> > productive public investment would still be miles ahead of current<br>>> > neoliberal austerisizing<br>>> ><br>>> > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:31 PM, <<a ymailto="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net" href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>>> ><br>>> >> Michael, I assure that that depiction of MMT is not accurate at all. <br>>> If<br>>> >> you have a link to some of that discussion, I can be more specific. <br>>> The<br>>> >> summary was actually radically wrong relative to MMT and functional<br>>> >> fiscal<br>>> >> policies. Taxation at this point is primarily a means of controlling <br>>> the<br>>> >> accumulation of wealth withing specific income groups, and of course<br>>> >> accelerating the
incomes for other economic profiles. It has no <br>>> bearing<br>>> >> on<br>>> >> funding fiscal policies at all. The FEASTA people have been generally<br>>> >> fairly good relative to the rest of the folks promoting community<br>>> >> currencies, and that can be misleading because the level of economic<br>>> >> literacy among community currency advocates is generally very low, <br>>> which<br>>> >> makes it usually a zone the less well informed promote economic<br>>> >> illiteracy. If I had a name of one of the presenters or a name of the<br>>> >> association or?, I could trace back to the people at the Univ. of<br>>> >> Missouri<br>>> >> at Kansas City to see who those people were. From what you have<br>>> >> described<br>>> >> someone or some group seems to be promoting
dys-information. This a <br>>> long<br>>> >> term pattern whereby pop-level "economics" speaker are used to <br>>> confuse<br>>> >> any<br>>> >> discourse or interest toward monetary reform. Perhaps MMT in a <br>>> nutshell<br>>> >> would be useful topic. I've done a two flyer set on a presentation of<br>>> >> MMT.<br>>> >><br>>> >> The first flyer is at <a href="http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/674" target="_blank">http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/674</a><br>>> >><br>>> >> The second flyer is at <a href="http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/675" target="_blank">http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/675</a><br>>> >><br>>> >> I could digest this down to even simpler terms and a shorter length.<br>>> >><br>>> >> and so we meander, Tadit
Anderson<br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 03:33:08 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>>> >> <<a ymailto="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>>> >><br>>> >> > hi Tadit,<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > I checked your work through Google ... interesting!<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > you may want to answer this, perhaps a misunderstanding of MMT on <br>>> my<br>>> >> part<br>>> >> > ...<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > earlier this year, I attented a Modern Monetary Theory lecture in<br>>> >> Dublin,<br>>> >> > after some enthusiastic promptings of FEASTA members ..<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > however, I came
out less than enthusiastic ..<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > the reason is the following, one of the ladies who gave the <br>>> lecture,<br>>> >> > gave an<br>>> >> > intro with the main principles of MMT, and one of the rules sounds<br>>> >> really<br>>> >> > simplistic supply-side to me<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > she said, lower taxes, and the economy grows, higher taxes, and the<br>>> >> > economy<br>>> >> > slows down ...<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > Disbelieving I asked a question on this, and she confirmed, and <br>>> this<br>>> >> > pretty<br>>> >> > much discredits MMT for me,<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > Michel<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:27 PM, <<a
ymailto="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net" href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>>> >> ><br>>> >> >> Michael, this is the link to Bill Mitchell's Billy Blog site and <br>>> the<br>>> >> >> first<br>>> >> >> segment of 7 in total.<br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> <a href="http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122" target="_blank">http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122</a><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> Mitchell is one of the top authorities on modern monetary <br>>> economics<br>>> >> >> which<br>>> >> >> is the discourse which has applied what was learned from <br>>> legitimate<br>>> >> >> interpretations of Keynes and of the demand side economics of the<br>>> >> WPA,<br>>> >> >>
CCC, and NYA as progressive (U.S.) responses to the 20th century<br>>> >> Great<br>>> >> >> Depression. Mitchell covers a list of "progressive" nominal<br>>> >> >> economists/establishments in the successive entries. L. Randall <br>>> Wray<br>>> >> of<br>>> >> >> the Univ. of Missouri Kansas City Econ. Dept has made similar<br>>> >> statements<br>>> >> >> which would take me a bit longer to produce. The core difference <br>>> is<br>>> >> >> between the economic assumptions being applied. The New Economic<br>>> >> >> Perspectives from Kansas City blog has a treasure trove of <br>>> resources<br>>> >> >> both<br>>> >> >> in the current primer review and of other stand alone materials. <br>>> It<br>>> >> may<br>>>
>> >> require a bit of translation. Mitchell is at the top of his class <br>>> in<br>>> >> >> terms<br>>> >> >> of modern monetary economics and as a perspective it has been one <br>>> of<br>>> >> the<br>>> >> >> few opposing perspectives relative the well funded deficit <br>>> terrorism<br>>> >> >> campaigns. Some of the material may seem counter-intuitive, and <br>>> it is<br>>> >> >> based upon in part how central banking actually operates <br>>> currently,<br>>> >> only<br>>> >> >> how those principles can serve a more public and more social <br>>> agenda.<br>>> >> The<br>>> >> >> counter-intuitive part derives from the neo-classical framing <br>>> which<br>>> >> has<br>>>
>> >> dominated the field for decades if not longer. Ie, by its<br>>> >> familiarity,<br>>> >> >> the<br>>> >> >> neo-classical framing seems correct when it is not actually, and<br>>> >> serves<br>>> >> >> to<br>>> >> >> contain genuine progressive initiatives within a neo-classical <br>>> box of<br>>> >> >> assumptions. On a related topic, what is known as Jevons's <br>>> Paradox is<br>>> >> >> often applied within ecological and environmental circles to <br>>> "prove"<br>>> >> the<br>>> >> >> futility of progressive energy measures and energy efficient<br>>> >> technology,<br>>> >> >> ends up being paradoxical only within the neo-classical set of<br>>> >> >> assumptions.<br>>> >>
>><br>>> >> >> as we go, Tadit<br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:49:51 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>>> >> >> <<a ymailto="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> > thanks, do you have a link to the baker critique you mention <br>>> below?<br>>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> > Michel<br>>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:59 PM, <<a ymailto="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net" href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>>> >> >>
><br>>> >> >> >> Y'all, Baker tends to have a reputation of being strong on the<br>>> >> >> rhetoric<br>>> >> >> >> but very weak on the actual economics side of his material. It <br>>> has<br>>> >> >> been<br>>> >> >> >> demonstrated that his economic assumptions are neo-liberal in<br>>> >> their<br>>> >> >> >> substance. Though this might be an interesting foray at one<br>>> >> level, if<br>>> >> >> >> done<br>>> >> >> >> in a less than serious fashion it is likely to promote economic<br>>> >> >> >> illiteracy. This may seem harsh, and buying into the<br>>> >> >> >> neo-liberal/neo-classical framing of our situation cuts off <br>>> even<br>>> >> >> >>
imagining<br>>> >> >> >> informed fiscal options. I come from primarily a post-Keynesian<br>>> >> >> >> macro-economics and functional finance perspective, and this <br>>> sits<br>>> >> >> well<br>>> >> >> >> with my 20 plus years of being active in community centered<br>>> >> economic<br>>> >> >> >> activism, from entrepreneurship development, to being <br>>> treasurer of<br>>> >> >> two<br>>> >> >> >> different cooperatives, to being downstream of fraud <br>>> perpetrated<br>>> >> >> under a<br>>> >> >> >> false flag of left "progressiv-ism," and other investments<br>>> >> regarding.<br>>> >> >> >> Just<br>>> >> >> >> finished a series of essays by
Bill Mitchell which included a<br>>> >> >> critique<br>>> >> >> >> of<br>>> >> >> >> Dean Baker's economics, entitled "With Friends, Like These..."<br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> >> Tadit Anderson, Re-Imagining Economics<br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:50:04 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>>> >> >> >> <<a ymailto="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >><br>>> >><br>>> <a
href="http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf" target="_blank">http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf</a><br>>> >> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> >> > Hi Kevin, perhaps you'd find chapter 10 interesting, and even<br>>> >> >> chapter<br>>> >> >> >> 11,<br>>> >> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> >> > commentary always appreciated if you have time,<br>>> >> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> >> > Michel<br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> >> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>>> >> >> >> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net"
target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>>> >> >> >><br>>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >> ><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>>> >> >> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>>> >> >> <br>>> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>>> >> >><br>>> >> ><br>>> >>
><br>>> >><br>>> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>>> >> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>>> >> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>>> >><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>>> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>>> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
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