agreed Michael, as you say:<br><br>"<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I
would personally be very cautious in any attempt to transpose notions of
"open"
or even p2p directly to traditional/indigenous societies without first
undertaking a major process of cultural understanding and
translation."</font></span><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 3:44 PM, michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<u></u>
<div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Michel
and all,</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Thanks
for the pointer Michel but I'm not sure that those examples are very pertinent
in this context.� I think that indigenous traditional knowledge as has been
pointed out is highly contextual as is�its documentation or formalization
and is quite different in form and substance from� "open information/open
data" as we in western developed countries understand this.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">One
element of this knowledge is that there may be cultural restrictions on its
access/use within the specific cultural context i.e. there may be cultural
limitions on who can use what knowledge and for what purposes and to disregard
these limitations/practices without full regard for the owners of the
traditional knowledge is not only deeply disrespectful but it might be very
destructive of the local culture and even on the knowledge that is being
"captured".</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">One
other important consideration here is that for many indigenous peoples their
knowledge may be a resource, in many cases the only resource available to them
in providing a means for participating in the larger society.� Thus
calls/demands for "open knowledge" in these instances may be an updated form of
colonialism -- acting in such a way as to deprive indigenous people of the
opportunity to take some material advantage of their cultural and environment
parallel to similar processes where other resources such as land or raw
materials might similarly have been stolen by outsiders.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I
would personally be very cautious in any attempt to transpose notions of "open"
or even p2p directly to traditional/indigenous societies without first
undertaking a major process of cultural understanding and
translation.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Best,</font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font></span>�</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Mike</font></span></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Michel Bauwens<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:43
PM<br><b>To:</b> P2P Foundation mailing list<br><b>Cc:</b>
nina<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] a new type of
platform?<br><br></font></div>Hi Devin,<br><br>THere is indeed a long
tradition of traditional people using documentation and networks to further
their cause,<br><br>for them as for us, it's part of an arsenal of means they
can use,<br><br>but the context of technology use matters, i.e. is it under
their own control, or not, is it used or not, for the benefit of outside
forces,<br><br>Michael Gurstein, at OKCON11, pointed to some famous case
studies where 'open documentation' was used preferentially by those already
privileged, thus increasing rather than decreasing power
differentials...<br><br>Michel<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Devin Balkind <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org" target="_blank">devin@sarapisfoundation.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">I don't think you're making an argument against
documentation, but you are making an argument for access to resources.�
I consider knowledge a resource and it's documentation one of many ways to
make that resource useable.� <br><br>The following is from the website
you cited:<br><br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<p><b>Example: The Potato Park community biocultural database
(Peru)</b></p>
<p>A database of potato varieties and biocultural systems became necessary
to hold the information collected by communities through action research.
The database uses free (open source) software to administer data entry,
access and use, since this is compatible with customary practices of free
and open sharing of knowledge. The free software DRUPAL platform is
creating a database based on three Andean principles of reciprocity,
duality and equilibrium. The database also uses GIS technology and
audiovisual equipment for recording resources and
knowledge.</p></blockquote><a href="http://biocultural.iied.org/tools/community-biocultural-registers" target="_blank">http://biocultural.iied.org/tools/community-biocultural-registers</a><br><br>Since
there is no link to the dataset and considering your post, I'm wondering
whether you think this database should be public and accessible via the
internet.
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:35 AM, jmp <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:m.pedersen@lancaster.ac.uk" target="_blank">m.pedersen@lancaster.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div><br><br>On 28/07/11 09:20, Karl Robillard wrote:<br>>
Nicholas,<br>><br>> The importance of OSE is not primarily in what
is being produced, but *how* it<br>> is being produced. �The
knowledge of production is being openly shared with<br>> the expressed
goal of replication and abundance. �Doing this is just as
useful<br>> for producing food forests as it is for tractors. �If
you see that traditional<br>> knowledge is disappearing then you only
need to document and share it to stop<br>> that from
happening.<br><br></div>For info / some related implications, from a
different perspective.<br><br>The latter part - especially "... then you
only ..." - parallels a<br>common and widespread conception of traditional
knowledge that is<br>problematic, in its reduction, at least insofar as
the context of<br>indigenous people is concerned. It ignores the material
and physical<br>reality of knowledge as doing: traditional knowledge is
practices<br>embedded in bio-cultural systems -- not merely information
that can be<br>documented ex-situ.<br><br>It is precisely this reduced
conception of traditional knowledge - i.e.<br>that it can be documented to
protect it - that many indigenous movements<br>and empathetic researchers
are arguing and working against, because it<br>is devastating to many
communities (another set of socio-economic<br>conflicts arises from the
so-called benefit sharing that accompanies<br>this approach, but that is a
tangent here).<br><br>It is a conception manifested in the UN, WIPO, state
and corporate<br>"intellectual property" approaches to the "protection" of
traditional<br>knowledge. Indeed, it forms central part of contemporary
international<br>political economy - and market expansion - as it has the
purpose of<br>spreading the very the idea of private, exclusive ownership
of knowledge<br>and intellectual property generally, while seeking
credibility through<br>"protection" of minorities and vulnerable groups,
whose cultures in turn<br>are undermined as market relations or the cash
economy advances onto<br>their territory. The protection myth, in this
context, functions to<br>extract information (recipes, species info etc.)
from knowledge<br>practices, but let's the bio-cultural systems in which
they exist<br>wither. Some background info here: <a href="http://biocultural.iied.org/" target="_blank">http://biocultural.iied.org/</a><br><br>Documenting some
"knowledge" does nothing automagically for a knowledge<br>practice, except
that in the case of traditional, medicinal knowledge<br>practices, it -
with obvious intentions and effects - facilitates<br>commercialisation of
the information extracted from a given knowledge<br>practice. Museums are
full of dead knowledge.<br><br>In other words, you can document as much,
say, shamanic knowledge as you<br>like, but if there is no access to
forest, land and the required<br>resources - i.e. bio-cultural systems -
in which those knowledge<br>practices traditionally unfold, then it is
merely information in an<br>abstract form on paper (or in bits).<br><br>If
you want to preserve knowledge practices about living on and with
the<br>land - i.e. about growing stuff - then the first step is to
secure<br>access to land in order to be able to practice. Knowing by
description<br>how to grow something won't put food on the table unless
there is land<br>to practice on. Knowing by acquaintance won't either,
hence many<br>cultures facing land grabs, deforestation, climate change
etc. are<br>losing their traditional knowledge not because it is no longer
known, or<br>undocumented, but simply because they become uprooted and
have nowhere<br>to grow, to end on ecologicals
metaphors.<br><br>-martin<br>
<div>
<div></div>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><font color="#888888">-- <br>Devin
Balkind<br>Director, Sarapis Foundation
<div><a href="mailto:devin@sarapisfoundation.org" target="_blank">devin@sarapisfoundation.org</a><br>@devinbalkind</div><br></font><br>_______________________________________________<br>P2P
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