<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">Yes People are producers and consumers. In every system, people produce and consume... What is done though is that those actions are done in different times, so this is not what i am saying. <div>
<br></div><div>What happens right now is that someone gives value to someone and hopes in an naive way that the other will find a way to repay him. The other person can only guarantee of his capabilities and that he is willing to work. He cannot guarantee that others will like or have money to buy his products. There are many reasons why others wont buy products from him, reasons that are outside of his reach. So when the market doesnt help him make money, he is to blame. No, I totally disagree.<div>
<br></div><div>Lets see how other systems try to work with this problem.</div><div><br></div><div>Banks try to find what assets he has, if he has a job. They try to predict the risk of the loan.</div><div>Businesses  only care to sell products. They are not interested in understanding whether there is a way for cosumers to make money. If the business and their customers was a closed system, what businesses do is sell products to their customers without knowing that their customers will be able to provide value to the workers of the business so as that the cycle of  flow continue.</div>
<div><br></div><div>People should understand the concept that for them to be able to work or sell their products, others will need to work or sell their products.</div><div><br></div><div>Secondly, If we are to make a system that is rigid and is not prone in creating debts that cannot be payed back, we should create contracts between people that are based on concrete information and promises that they can hold.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So this is the difference between the 2 systems.</div><div><br></div><div>With my system, the promise is that he will work if asked.</div><div>With all other systems(except barter) the promise is that he WILL work.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The one contract will always be fulfilled since the promises are concrete .</div><div>The established ways loans are done let the contracts contain the risk of the market in themselves. They force the borrower to make promises that he cant keep and thus contracts are prone to the failures of the market.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>With my system, it doesnt mean that people dont care to create value for the community. On the contrary, People will not be able to be given value(products) if it is not certain that they can provide something in return. This way bad transactions are stopped from the beginning.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But it also gives incentive to people to buy products so that they sell their products. It creates economic activity so as to sustain or create more economic activity.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
<div>The dichotomy of a person into a seller and a producer is wrong. Each contract of my system is a small closed circle in itself. What happens when more contracts come, the closed circle becomes bigger and bigger.</div>
<div><br></div><div>All contracts will be rigid, never to fail.</div><div><br></div><div>The general idea is this: It is not the fault of the small businesses or of all those unemployed that they cannot keep up to their responsibilies if they tried to find work, sell their products but failed. I hope we all understand that people are unemployed because of reasons that are not in their reach.(at least most of them)</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>... When I have time, I will make an example how a new investment changes the flow of a whole circle(for example) and why the idea of having only workers or consumers as investors is inadequate. (Being an investor is different from the person that controls the way things are produced)</div>
</div></span><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/23 Thomas Greco <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<u></u>

  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
    Yes, everyone is both a producer and a consumer. Alvin Toffler
    coined the term &quot;prosumer.&quot;<br>
    <br>
    You can call the seller a lender and the buyer a borrower, if you
    like. The seller has in a way &quot;loaned&#39; real value to the
    buyer/borrower.<br>
    The WIR required that lines of credit be secured by the pledge of
    collateral. That provides surety of contract.<br>
    <br>
    You say, &quot;When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,
    product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a job
    to give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then he
    loses the credit he received..&quot;<br>
    <br>
    Good luck selling that idea. As a borrower you want me to advance
    real value to you and find you a job besides? <br>
    What is YOUR responsibility? It&#39;s up to you to provide something
    that community values and wants to buy.<div class="im"><br>
    <br>
    <pre cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com" target="_blank">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: <a href="http://beyondmoney.net" target="_blank">http://beyondmoney.net</a> 
Tom&#39;s News and Views: <a href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a> 
Archive Website: <a href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com" target="_blank">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg" target="_blank">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, &quot;The End of Money and the Future of Civilization&quot; 
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
</pre>
    <br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
    On 06/23/2011 2:26 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
    <blockquote type="cite">Yes , I  was just confused because of my english and
      because it is a broad definition that is not mentioned a lot.
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Yes the fact that we use our money is very important. One
        important thing that could be used in Lets and is used in my
        system is this: </div>
      <div>When someone is given a loan, the own that gives the loan,
        product(money) should have the responsibility to get the other a
        job to give his debt back, if he doesnt find a job for him, then
        he loses the credit he received..</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I recently read a bit about the WIR bank and how he was given
        assets, real money to allow a balance to go negative. Then Kevin
        very well said that negative balances can be backed by future
        work.</div>
      <div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <div>I go even further and say that the borrower can only give
        back the debt when others employ him or buy his products. The
        borrower can only give the promise that when asked about one of
        his product, he will give it to repay his debt. The market is
        not controlled by him and he is not responsible. The lender
        should be the one to lose his credit, since the borrower told
        him to ask him of a product and he will provide.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>This is very important if we are to have flow of products in
        the economy. Someone will buy a product if someone else buys his
        product. The fact that in a transaction we differentiate the
        buyer from the seller is fundamentally flawed.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>The buyer is also a seller. The employee is also the
        employer.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>So we could change the LETS system to give an incentive to
        people to form  circles.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Let me now guess that the absence of such a system is the
        reason why LETS communities prefer to be isolated, to keep their
        credits locally.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/23 Thomas Greco <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com" target="_blank">thg@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> It&#39;s not all that
              complicated. <br>
              Yes, LETS is a form of mutual credit clearing.<br>
              Credit clearing simply allows us to use &quot;our&quot; money (that
              we create in the process of buying/selling) instead of
              &quot;their&quot; money, which must be borrowed from a bank or
              earned from someone else who borrowed it from a bank.<br>
              <br>
              If I do some work for you, we must agree upon a price.
              Your account is debited and my account is credited for the
              same amount. I can then use my credits to buy whatever I
              want, at an agreed price, from someone else in the system.
              You must eventually provide value to someone in order to
              bring your balance back to zero. If you default, the
              collective membership bears the burden of that instead of
              me personally suffering the loss. <br>
              The system must have sufficient revenues to cover such
              losses as well as its operating expenses. <br>
              I&#39;ve explained all of this many times in my writings.
              <div><br>
                <br>
                <pre cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com" target="_blank">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: <a href="http://beyondmoney.net" target="_blank">http://beyondmoney.net</a> 
Tom&#39;s News and Views: <a href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a> 
Archive Website: <a href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com" target="_blank">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg" target="_blank">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, &quot;The End of Money and the Future of Civilization&quot; 
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
</pre>
                <br>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div> On 06/22/2011 4:33 AM, Apostolis
                  Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
                  <blockquote type="cite">I tried to find information
                    about mutual credit clearing Unions. I couldnt find
                    much, so I guess that the name itself explains it. I
                    suppose that LETS is such a system.
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Let me make an example so as to see if we are
                      talking about the same method of exchange and to
                      clarify things.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>We have John, Michael and all the others. John
                      is making furniture. In fact he has 5 different
                      kind of furniture that he is making. Michael is a
                      software engineer, he is paid by the hour and has
                      expertise in a number of programming languages and
                      frameworks. Both of them had done previous work
                      and they have a reputation that distinguishes them
                      from other of the same work.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>John decided that he wants to have a site
                      advertising his furniture so he goes to Michael
                      and tells him to make him a site. Michael and John
                      make a contract. Michael through the (system)site
                      knows  at which proportionality has john currency,
                      ie furnitute been exchanged with other currencies,
                      products even if that exchange is indirect. The
                      system transforms to him through past transactions
                      or future contracts the currency of furniture into
                      the products he wants. This way Michael has an
                      exact understanding of the pleasure he recieves at
                      a specific time vs the work he will have to do
                      now.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>John on the other hand understands the amount
                      of &#39;happiness he will receive&#39; , ie the product.
                      There is no need for such a transformation.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Both now have enough information to start
                      trading, decide the amount of work each one will
                      be obliged to do and at what time. </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Lets just say now that Michael now has a
                      contract with John that allows him to ask for a
                      specific number of furniture of a specific design
                      till a specific date. That means that after this
                      date John has no obligation to make these
                      furniture. He has no debt and he is free to
                      abandon his workshop, retire.</div>
                    <div>Till that date Michael has to find work for
                      John so as to transform his currency into another
                      he likes. The system told him that most likely he
                      will transform it into the products he likes but
                      it is up to him. </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Let us say that someone likes the furniture of
                      john and wants to trade. At this time he can trade
                      directly with John or with Michael.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>As you can see if John decides to abandon his
                      obligations the one to be harmed will be Michael.
                      This system doesnt have an abstract sense of
                      money. It tries to transform the currencies into
                      currencies that we want.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>How much value do 500 dollars mean to you?  500
                      dollars have different value per person depending
                      on the things they can buy with them. After a
                      period of time you will still have 500 dollars but
                      the things you can buy are different because the
                      prices change. Not only that, the person or node
                      that has the money plays an important role on the
                      value of money. Big corporations buy stock with a
                      lower price than smaller ones. Their value of
                      money is different. </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><b>The topology of the graph plays an important
                        role in the transformation of money into goods. </b></div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>So Dollars or any kind of such a currency, like
                      gold, doesnt contain within it the pleasure,
                      happiness we will receive with those money.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Now If someone were to give us how happy he
                      would be if he were in a specific situation(
                      number of products, amount of work), if everyone
                      did that, I could take all those people and
                      organize them in such a way, automatically
                      creating circles of flows, automatically finding
                      the prices and amount of products that are to be
                      traded. If I am given enough information, I could
                      even tell an engineer how his invention will
                      change the flow of products and prices.</div>
                    <div>
                      <div>I havent made the insertion of data user
                        friendly yet, but I think that It takes all
                        parameters into account and the price is
                        determined in such a way so as that the
                        individual maximizes his gain. You must also
                        understand that noone can cheat. If someone says
                        something different from what he wants , he will
                        get worse results.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Savings equal the amount of money on negative
                        balances. There are methods to stop people from
                        not paying and this should be enforced globally.
                        If someone has a flow of products every day, if
                        he doesnt want to pay old debts, he could be
                        dropped out of the system, not be able to buy
                        new things. Other people could also insure
                        someones debt.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>As old debts are transformed into new debts
                        by making new contracts, savings change position
                        from one person to another as debt changes
                        hands. You can undestand that those who will
                        have debt will be the ones that are thought as
                        the most productive and usefull in the future.
                        Another method for savings allocation is
                        proportionality of your savings to the goods you
                        will want in the future. </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>What I am saying here IS experimental. What
                        is sure though is the fact that it requires a
                        lot of information to make it work.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Best regards...</div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div><br>
                            <div class="gmail_quote"> 2011/6/22 Thomas
                              Greco <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com" target="_blank">thg@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
                                <div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
                                  Dear Apostolis,<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Below are the links to my websites,
                                  and the title of my latest book.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Clearing circles have been operating
                                  successfully for many years. It is an
                                  old idea.<br>
                                  Now, the challenge is to optimize the
                                  procedures and protocols and take it
                                  to scale, then network local exchanges
                                  together to provide an means of
                                  payment that is locally controlled but
                                  globally useful.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  A debit balance in a credit clearing
                                  exchange can be looked at as a loan.
                                  It is a draft upon a line of credit
                                  that is extended by the collective
                                  membership. In a clearing system some
                                  accounts must be allowed to be
                                  negative. The total of negative
                                  balances (or positive balances) can be
                                  looked at as the supply of internal
                                  currency.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Savings and investment, or <b>finance
                                  </b>is a separate function from <b>exchange</b>.
                                  <br>
                                  Yes, they are related, but require
                                  different mechanisms.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Thomas<br>
                                  <pre cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com" target="_blank">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone (USA): 520-820-0575
Beyond Money: <a href="http://beyondmoney.net" target="_blank">http://beyondmoney.net</a> 
Tom&#39;s News and Views: <a href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a> 
Archive Website: <a href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com" target="_blank">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg" target="_blank">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, &quot;The End of Money and the Future of Civilization&quot; 
can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing, Amazon.com, or your local bookshop.
</pre>
                                  <div>
                                    <div> <br>
                                      On 06/21/2011 7:35 PM, Michel
                                      Bauwens wrote:
                                      <blockquote type="cite">Thomas has
                                        written a few books and is in
                                        touch with many local credit
                                        commons initiatives ...<br>
                                        <br>
                                        he&#39;s in cc,<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Michel<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed,
                                          Jun 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM,
                                          Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com" target="_blank">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                          wrote:<br>
                                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">What you
                                            say was exactly the idea
                                            with which I started
                                            working. 
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>Where is more info
                                              about it? Has Thomas
                                              created such a clearing
                                              house? 
                                              <div> Most importantly,
                                                has he found an
                                                algorithm to create
                                                trading circles? has he
                                                studied the macroeconomy
                                                of such a system?</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Why do we need to see
                                                the global network? </div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Well, in order to be
                                                able to make
                                                investments. New
                                                investments about a
                                                specific product can
                                                have indirect
                                                consequences to the
                                                whole network. We may
                                                then have to compute
                                                what percentage of the
                                                investment will have to
                                                be paid by each peer.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>We need to know about
                                                the global network in
                                                order to decide to which
                                                persons we can store our
                                                savings and the ability
                                                of those currencies to
                                                be transfered into goods
                                                that we will want in the
                                                future. </div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>It is important to
                                                think of each peer as a
                                                producer, a seller, an
                                                investor. Investors need
                                                information.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                                                      2011/6/21 Kevin
                                                      Carson <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:free.market.anticapitalist@gmail.com" target="_blank">free.market.anticapitalist@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
                                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                        <div>El 21/06/11
                                                          04:23,
                                                          Apostolis
                                                          Xekoukoulotakis
                                                          dijo:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>&gt; What I
                                                          am about to
                                                          say needs
                                                          testing and
                                                          more thinking
                                                          but let me
                                                          tell you<br>
                                                          &gt; what I
                                                          have done so
                                                          far to create
                                                          an alternative
                                                          to the free
                                                          market.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        We&#39;re probably
                                                        using the term
                                                        &quot;free market&quot; in
                                                        a different
                                                        sense.  The<br>
                                                        market can refer
                                                        simply to the
                                                        cash nexus, or
                                                        the arena of
                                                        commodity<br>
                                                        production for
                                                        monetized
                                                        exchange.<br>
                                                        <br>
                                                        But it can also
                                                        be used, by
                                                        market anarchist
                                                        like me, to
                                                        describe the<br>
                                                        entire spectrum
                                                        of voluntary
                                                        transactions and
                                                        relationships --<br>
                                                        including
                                                        cooperatives,
                                                        gift economies,
                                                        communal
                                                        property,
                                                        informal<br>
                                                        barter, mutual
                                                        aid, etc.<br>
                                                        <div><br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;  I
                                                          have created a
                                                          new class of
                                                          currencies
                                                          that are very
                                                          similar to the<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; very<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;  old
                                                          currencies.
                                                          What if each
                                                          person used
                                                          the creation
                                                          of his work as<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;
                                                           currency.
                                                          When someone
                                                          owns 5 paul&#39;s
                                                          chairs for
                                                          example , It
                                                          is meant<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; that<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;  Paul
                                                          will have to
                                                          give him those
                                                          5 chairs in
                                                          the future if
                                                          he asks for<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; them.<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;  This
                                                          is then some
                                                          kind of loan.
                                                          Someone gives
                                                          something now
                                                          in exchange<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt; for<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;
                                                           something in
                                                          the future. If
                                                          he doesnt need
                                                          the chairs, he
                                                          might have to<br>
                                                          &gt;&gt;
                                                           exchange
                                                          Paul&#39;s chairs
                                                          with something
                                                          else.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        That sounds a
                                                        lot like Tom
                                                        Greco&#39;s mutual
                                                        credit clearing
                                                        networks,<br>
                                                        which I&#39;m a big
                                                        fan of.  Every
                                                        member runs a
                                                        balance that
                                                        looks a lot<br>
                                                        like the balance
                                                        in a checking
                                                        account.  When
                                                        you sell a good
                                                        or<br>
                                                        service to a
                                                        member your
                                                        balance goes up,
                                                        and when you
                                                        purchase same<br>
                                                        it goes down.
                                                         And the system
                                                        allows people to
                                                        run negative
                                                        balances,<br>
                                                        so long as the
                                                        negative balance
                                                        is limited to
                                                        some value
                                                        relative to<br>
                                                        their average
                                                        monthly sales
                                                        and the account
                                                        continues to be
                                                        active and<br>
                                                        turn over.  So
                                                        &quot;money&quot; is
                                                        essentially
                                                        backed by the
                                                        goods being<br>
                                                        traded; rather
                                                        than being a
                                                        store of value
                                                        from past
                                                        production, it
                                                        is<br>
                                                        simply a unit of
                                                        account for
                                                        denominating
                                                        trade of
                                                        present-for-present<br>
                                                        or
                                                        present-for-future
                                                        production.
                                                         Nobody has to
                                                        have a store of
                                                        money<br>
                                                        from past
                                                        production in
                                                        order to trade,
                                                        so there&#39;s no
                                                        problem of<br>
                                                        economic
                                                        stagnation for
                                                        want of
                                                        liquidity
                                                        (&quot;there&#39;s not
                                                        enough money<br>
                                                        in
                                                        circulation&quot;).
                                                         People create
                                                        money by
                                                        trading.<br>
                                                        <font color="#888888"><br>
                                                          --<br>
                                                        </font>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>Kevin
                                                          Carson<br>
                                                          Center for a
                                                          Stateless
                                                          Society <a href="http://c4ss.org" target="_blank">http://c4ss.org</a><br>
                                                          Mutualist
                                                          Blog:  Free
                                                          Market
                                                          Anti-Capitalism<br>
                                                          <a href="http://mutualist.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://mutualist.blogspot.com</a><br>
                                                          The Homebrew
                                                          Industrial
                                                          Revolution:  A
                                                          Low-Overhead
                                                          Manifesto<br>
                                                          <a href="http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com</a><br>
                                                          Organization
                                                          Theory:  A
                                                          Libertarian
                                                          Perspective<br>
                                                          <a href="http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html" target="_blank">http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html</a><br>

                                                          <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </blockquote>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <br clear="all">
                                                    <br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                -- <br>
                                                <span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">
                                                  <pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">Sincerely yours, </pre>
                                                  <pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre>
                                                </span><br>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                                            list<br>
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                                            <br>
                                          </blockquote>
                                        </div>
                                        <br>
                                        <br clear="all">
                                        <br>
                                        -- <br>
                                        P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> 
                                        - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>
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                                        <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <br>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <br clear="all">
                            <br>
                            -- <br>
                            <span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">Sincerely yours, </pre>
                              <pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre>
                            </span><br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        <span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">
          <pre style="white-space:pre-wrap"></pre>
          <pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">Sincerely yours, </pre>
          <pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre>
        </span><br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap"><br></pre><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">Sincerely yours, </pre>
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre></span><br>