my hunch is that such a movement also needs a cohesive leadership group where there is already a priori trust, and that perhaps they launched 'too fast' before there was any such coherence,<br><br>michel<br><br><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Samuel Rose <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="im">On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked' against<br>
> new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with<br>
organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are<br>
no co-opted and under either group's control.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> > Dear Sam,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps they are<br>
>> > heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries<br>
>> > political<br>
>> > efficicay and a way to avoid the� issues you are highlighting,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the<br>
>> > fall<br>
>> > of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party,<br>
>> > and<br>
>> > many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > so my hunch is the problem was another one,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Michel<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective<br>
>> and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In<br>
>> other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge,<br>
>> but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems<br>
>> with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a<br>
>> bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem<br>
>> to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > thank you Sam,<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to<br>
>> >> > map<br>
>> >> > out<br>
>> >> > commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach,� based on 8<br>
>> >> > principles<br>
>> >> > which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy<br>
>> >> > would<br>
>> >> > look like, see the falkvinge blog for that<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly<br>
>> >> here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the US<br>
>> >> with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the<br>
>> >> initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who<br>
>> >> saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or<br>
>> >> personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The<br>
>> >> Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think<br>
>> >> that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth<br>
>> >> *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and<br>
>> >> energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and<br>
>> >> wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence<br>
>> >> that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the<br>
>> >> people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock<br>
>> >> platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass<br>
>> >> people.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party<br>
>> >> route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with<br>
>> >> existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party<br>
>> >> and platform above people and their actual problems tends to<br>
>> >> consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key<br>
>> >> here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with<br>
>> >> the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based<br>
>> >> platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either.<br>
>> >> Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or<br>
>> >> software (although these are in my opinion components towards an<br>
>> >> effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of<br>
>> >> people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We<br>
>> >> here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real<br>
>> >> relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. �Maybe<br>
>> >> technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here.<br>
>> >> (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust,<br>
>> >> real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight<br>
>> >> that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the<br>
>> >> most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of<br>
>> >> rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a<br>
>> >> permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning,<br>
>> >> re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation,<br>
>> >> and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political<br>
>> >> parties that are aligned with our goals.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >> > wrote:<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my<br>
>> >> >> schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on<br>
>> >> >> any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for<br>
>> >> >> Lansing<br>
>> >> >> Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about<br>
>> >> >> how<br>
>> >> >> this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to<br>
>> >> >> build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing<br>
>> >> >> Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts<br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto</a><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy,<br>
>> >> >> with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at<br>
>> >> >> the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people<br>
>> >> >> worldwide<br>
>> >> >> interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward<br>
>> >> >> here<br>
>> >> >> in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out<br>
>> >> >> some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five<br>
>> >> >> Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that<br>
>> >> >> are<br>
>> >> >> specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better<br>
>> >> >> idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the<br>
>> >> >> situation here.<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens<br>
>> >> >> <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >> >> wrote:<br>
>> >> >> > hi sam,<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported<br>
>> >> >> > michigan<br>
>> >> >> > situation yet,<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > this would be a good starting point,<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > <a href="http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warning-about-emergency-financial-managers/" target="_blank">http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warning-about-emergency-financial-managers/</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > --<br>
>> >> >> > P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� -<br>
>> >> >> > <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>> >> >> > <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>> >> >> > <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> --<br>
>> >> >> --<br>
>> >> >> Sam Rose<br>
>> >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
>> >> >> Tel:<a href="tel:%2B1%28517%29%20639-1552" value="+15176391552">+1(517) 639-1552</a><br>
>> >> >> Cel: <a href="tel:%2B1-%28517%29-974-6451" value="+15179746451">+1-(517)-974-6451</a><br>
>> >> >> skype: samuelrose<br>
>> >> >> email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://futureforwardinstitute.com" target="_blank">http://futureforwardinstitute.com</a><br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://hollymeadcapital.com" target="_blank">http://hollymeadcapital.com</a><br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
>> >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > --<br>
>> >> > P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� -<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> Sam Rose<br>
>> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
>> >> Tel:<a href="tel:%2B1%28517%29%20639-1552" value="+15176391552">+1(517) 639-1552</a><br>
>> >> Cel: <a href="tel:%2B1-%28517%29-974-6451" value="+15179746451">+1-(517)-974-6451</a><br>
>> >> skype: samuelrose<br>
>> >> email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://futureforwardinstitute.com" target="_blank">http://futureforwardinstitute.com</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://hollymeadcapital.com" target="_blank">http://hollymeadcapital.com</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
>> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� -<br>
>> > <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
>> > <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>> > <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> --<br>
>> Sam Rose<br>
>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
>> Tel:<a href="tel:%2B1%28517%29%20639-1552" value="+15176391552">+1(517) 639-1552</a><br>
>> Cel: <a href="tel:%2B1-%28517%29-974-6451" value="+15179746451">+1-(517)-974-6451</a><br>
>> skype: samuelrose<br>
>> email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <a href="http://futureforwardinstitute.com" target="_blank">http://futureforwardinstitute.com</a><br>
>> <a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://hollymeadcapital.com" target="_blank">http://hollymeadcapital.com</a><br>
>> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
>><br>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
><br>
> Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
><br>
> Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
> <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div>--<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">--<br>
Sam Rose<br>
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
Tel:<a href="tel:%2B1%28517%29%20639-1552" value="+15176391552">+1(517) 639-1552</a><br>
Cel: <a href="tel:%2B1-%28517%29-974-6451" value="+15179746451">+1-(517)-974-6451</a><br>
skype: samuelrose<br>
email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="http://futureforwardinstitute.com" target="_blank">http://futureforwardinstitute.com</a><br>
<a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
<a href="http://hollymeadcapital.com" target="_blank">http://hollymeadcapital.com</a><br>
<a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
<br>
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
<br><br><br><br><br>