(michael, I'm hoping you have an opinion on the basic income query formulated in the subject line)<br><br>Dear Sy:<br><br>yes, that was it, speenhamland, and indeed not a basic income scheme as we envisage it today, but enough to keep labour out of the productive system and hence inacceptable to the rising industrial class ... if I remember Polanyi, it's the abolition of Speenhamland, and thus the full commodification of labour, which made the first capitalist boom of the 19th cy possible<br>
<br>I don't have an answer to your question, but if the basic income is unconditional, as it should be, it would require rather minimal bureaucratic involvement; it could say, be managed by a number of territitorial trusts: so far, it' just a hunch that there is more than one way to organize such a scheme, and that we should not automatically equate it with a central disbursing mechanism. I copy Michael Opielka, a basic income advocate and expert in Germany.<br>
<br>as for the broad p2p vs anarchism debate; I formulate it as follows: p2p theory is a new emancipatory theory emerging within the era of digital networks and in the context of the emergence of a cognitive working class (knowledge workers) that tries to reformulate emancipatory possibilities; it does so in an 'integral' fashion, not a 'ideological' fashion, i.e. it sources in many previous emancipatory traditions, to see what is still applicable today; this brings into contact with the traditions of anarchism, socialism, marxism, and other traditions which can be useful to reformulate emancipatory possibilities; however, it does not feel compelled to consider itself as a continuation of such traditions and to move within the confines of these earlier ideologies<br>
<br>I want to stress a few points regarding the state; first, that I think change requires working both outside and inside institutions, that are traversed by the same contradictions as society in general; second, that these institutions must be profoundly transformed rom within and without; third, that the current state forms would be fundamentally incompatible with a commons and p2p centered society; fourth that a lot of them may become unnecessary and obsolete if we can find p2p alternatives for them;� however, I would insist that there is something like society and a collective interest, which is not simply the cumulation of private or civil or p2p interests; and that this collective field requires common institutions, something like 'public authorities'; however, these may be quite unrecognizable with what we today see as 'the state', once they are full democratic and participatory; sixth, that 'withering away' is a hypothesis but not a full certainty.� I cannot see realistic visions of society as consisting exclusively from bottom up aggregations or private or collective contracts and associations<br>
<br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Sy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sytaffel@riseup.net">sytaffel@riseup.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
I think you're referring to the Speenhamland system - which wasn't a
universal system (it was mainly limited to southern counties in
England), was mandated by judges - part of a centralised and
hierarchical system of lawmaking - and was paid by local parishes -
ie it was managed and distributed local arm of another national,
centralised and hierarchical structure, the Church of England. <br>
<br>
I'm intrigued to hear of how you envisage a basic income system
without some for of centralised apparatus to ensure that the income
is universally available and equitably distributed. <br>
<br>
I'm less convinced that a substantive difference exists between P2P
theory and anarchism in that there needs to be reform (particularly
in the formation of voluntary networks of self-aggregation which can
fulfil roles currently undertaken by the state/market) before
revolution. While there are currents of anarchist thought which call
for the immediate destruction of the state, there are others which
contend that networks based on mutual aid need to be created
beforehand (Chomsky for example has regularly ridiculed anarchists
who argue that we could transition into a stateless society today).<br><font color="#888888">
<br>
Sy</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 12/04/2011 18:28, Michel Bauwens wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">thanks Sy, and for the comment by Kevin as well, <br>
<br>
I think that it is indeed the case that at least some of us
believe in the necessity of taking care of the collective field
(for which� the name state would be a misnomer), but also that the
existing state apparatus needs to be transformed before it can�
'wither' away, and that may be taken as an essential difference
with the anarchist tradition,<br>
<br>
however, I am� not sure that a basic income does require a
centralized apparatus (it could be, it is not something I have
thought true myself),<br>
<br>
while I personally support the basic income, it is not a central
concern because I see it as too serious a threat to the current
relations of production to see it as acceptable under current
circumstances .. if you read polanyi's history of capitalism, he
shows how the existing basic income of the late 18th cy, had to be
destroyed to make capitalism possible, (book, Great
Transformation, but I have forgotten the name of the basic income
like support scheme that existed in the UK at that period)<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Sy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sytaffel@riseup.net" target="_blank">sytaffel@riseup.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> While there are some
productive similarities between anarcho-syndicalism and P2P
theory to say they are the same thing goes too far... While
the notions of voluntary self-aggregation are central to
both, and both may agree upon Bakhtin's claim that <font color="#000000">'</font><font color="grey" size="3"><font color="#000000">Freedom without socialism is privilege
and injustice, and socialism without freedom is slavery
and brutality</font>' <font color="#000000">there are
also substantive differences between the two systems (or
the two categories, as within each there exist multiple
related and overlapping proposals and ideals).<br>
</font><br>
</font>As Marcos suggests the specific social and cultural
context of late capitalism, with not just the Internet, but
also a globalised economic system present a different set of
affordances for modes of production, some of the liberal
capitalist takes on peer production from people like Yochai
Benkler's Wealth of Networks cover this stuff very well and
explain why these socio-technical structures are amenable to
different types of economic production. Another key
difference is the envisioned role of the state - many bits
of P2P literature, not only some of Michel's writing, but
also material from people like Bernard Stiegler and Antonio
Negri propose forms of universal citizen's income which
would enable actors to freely self-aggregate within P2P
networks without having to worry about being unable to feed
themselves, access medical care or send their kids to
school. Any such form of universally distributed income
would tend to require some form of centralised body or state
apparatus to distribute this funding. The existence of this
type of state structure presents a differentiation from most
anarchist models where there exists no state.<br>
<br>
Its these types of difference which in my eyes make P2P
theory a genuinely new and exciting set of ideas rather than
simply rehashing centuries old ideas. <br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Sy<br>
<br>
On 12/04/2011 06:38, <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-request@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation-request@lists.ourproject.org</a>
wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Re: [P2P-F] is p2p akin to anarchism
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div> <br>
<pre>Michel, I would offer a little counter-argument to Mr. Hardy's comment.
Mainly that while syndicalism does indeed advocate a style of governance
very much like that as hoped for in the P2pFoundation (as well as myself),
the scale and diversity at which the Internet <b><span>*</span>enables<span>*</span></b> is something that is
far beyond what could ever be managed or orchestrated by non-networked means
(at least in the near term within scientific materialism). The desire for
trade and diversity would otherwise make primitive syndicalism fail. Indeed
both communism and capitalism arose from these failures.
Cheers,
Marcos
<a href="http://pangaia.sf.net" target="_blank">pangaia.sf.net</a>
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 6:12 AM, Michel Bauwens <a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank"><michelsub2004@gmail.com></a>wrote:
</pre>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<pre><div><span>> </span>views very welcome,
<span>></span>
<span>> </span>Michel
<span>></span>
<span>> </span>---------- Forwarded message ----------
<span>> </span>From: Facebook <a href="mailto:update+pjiidwm@facebookmail.com" target="_blank"><update+pjiidwm@facebookmail.com></a>
<span>> </span>Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:49 PM
<span>> </span>Subject: Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link.
<span>> </span>To: Michel Bauwens <a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank"><michelsub2004@gmail.com></a>
<span>></span>
<span>></span>
</div><div><div><span>> </span> facebook<a href="http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com" target="_blank"><http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com></a>
<span>> </span>Hi Michel,
<span>> </span>Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link.
<span>> </span>Henry wrote: "The article, "The Political Economy of Peer Production," by
<span>> </span>Michael Bauwens, advocates a supposedly new form of economic organization
<span>> </span>based on peer-to-peer networking. This social-network, flat,
<span>> </span>non-hierarchical system of production is anticipated in the political and
<span>> </span>economic philosophy of syndicalism, dating pack to 1895. Syndicalism is a
<span>> </span>system of organization of the means of production which seeks to replace
<span>> </span>free enterprise capitalism (US) and state capitalism (China) with
<span>> </span>co-operative, voluntary federations of democratically-organized and
<span>> </span>administered trade unions. Mutual aid, self-organization, and
<span>> </span>self-administration are among the means and goals of syndicalism. In other
<span>> </span>words, the first three "requirements"in this article, technological
<span>> </span>infrastructure that operates on peer-to-peer processes, alternative
<span>> </span>information and communication systems, software infrastructure, to the
<span>> </span>degree that they are requirements at all, in no way require computers or
<span>> </span>computer networks! The article attempts to graft the author's (perhaps
<span>> </span>un-self-aware) syndicalist political views onto the development process of
<span>> </span>the Internet and Free Software projects. In fact, the most successful of
<span>> </span>these, such as the Internet under Jon Postel, the Free Software Foundation
<span>> </span>under Richard Stallman, One Laptop per Child under Nicholas Negroponte, and
<span>> </span>Linux kernel maintenance under Linus Torvalds and Andrew Morton, have been
<span>> </span>what might more accurately described as "benign dictatorships" than
<span>> </span>syndicalist or peer-to-peer in nature. "An injury to one is an injury to
<span>> </span>all." <a href="http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism</a>
<span>> </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel</a>
<span>> </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman</a>
<span>> </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Negroponte" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Negroponte</a>
<span>> </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/linus.html" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/linus.html</a>"
<span>></span>
<span>></span>
</div></div><span>> </span>See the comment thread<a href="http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com" target="_blank"><http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com></a><div>
<span>> </span>Reply to this email to comment on this link.
<span>> </span>Thanks,
<span>> </span>The Facebook Team
</div><span>> </span> See Comment<a href="http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com" target="_blank"><http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com></a> The
<div><span>> </span>message was sent to <a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>. If you don't want to receive
<span>> </span>these emails from Facebook in the future or have your email address used for
</div><span>> </span>friend suggestions, you can unsubscribe<a href="http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=c05bf5&u=528245547&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge" target="_blank"><http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=c05bf5&u=528245547&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge></a>.
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