HI Orsan,<br><br>perhaps the IWW was a 'new union' rather than a reformed new one?<br><br>In France too, there seems a new breed of unions has been formed which uses different tactics etc ... can't recall the name but it has Sud in the name and is infuential among railway workers ..<br>
<br>please keep us posted on this essential linkage between p2p and labor, this essentially, is what is going to change our world,<br><br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 5:23 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:orsan@tie-netherlands.nl">orsan@tie-netherlands.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Thanks Michel, me too! I am writing something on this at the moment for New Unioniosm Network of Peter Hall Jones, will copy on the P2P blog and scoop it when it is ready.<br>
<br>
Is is still a good idea to organize a skype meeting for knowing each other bit more and exchanging insights on the issue of immaterial labour and unions?<br>
<br>
And, with due respect to your experience, and being fully agree with you on the external challange needed, I want to keep hoping a radical change to come for the traditional union form, asap. This happened a century ago with the IWW experience so why not once more. I try to think GAIA as IWW 2.0 but its organized network (of networks via individual dots) version. The recent posts on my SNU blog are identfying possibilities. I just need to start organizing workers, activists, en peer producers. Tomorrow I will join a rare confernece of networks, movements, unions that signals positively: <a href="http://www.jointsocialconference.eu/" target="_blank">http://www.jointsocialconference.eu/</a><br>
will try to report on the outcome to you.<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Dear Orsan,<br>
<br>
I really hope you will continue your efforts,<br>
<br>
in my experience, traditional institutions DO NOT CHANGE, unless confronted<br>
with competing alternatives, so traditional unions will not change if they<br>
do not see new forms of organisation that are threatening to take away their<br>
own members ...<br>
<br>
I intend to write a first response to Jean Lievens' essay soon, but I hope<br>
others will chip in,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 10:51 PM, <<a href="mailto:orsan@tie-netherlands.nl" target="_blank">orsan@tie-netherlands.nl</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Very interesting and complex discussion, thanks Michel for creating this<br>
platform. and giving us to strech our brains.<br>
I currently try to force myslef to imagine and create peer governance<br>
mechanisms for existing traditional unions [mainly], as well as forming a<br>
new model in practice that would adopt p2p as its internal and external<br>
relational dynamic (gaia) [i could put less time on this].<br>
Following the IWW experience, and combining several organising<br>
methodologies, I hope, if it gets success, this letter experience would<br>
motivate traditional union structures to change further [hypotethically].<br>
The more I learn about the p2p theory and practices, the idea of organising<br>
immaterial labour is becoming a very good idea with gaia, together with<br>
material labour. I would like to invite you and others to discuss on this,<br>
in a publishible way.<br>
greetings<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
�Dear Patrick,<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
These are interesting remarks, though I suspect you are being ironic, �but<br>
here a few counter-observations, that may even make it a non-problem:<br>
<br>
- the ability of peers to produce freely shared commons is not a problem,<br>
only the capability of netarchical capitalism to exploit the value without<br>
return, is; that shifts the locus of the problem to the problems of those<br>
peers as workers, instead of seeing them as 'scabs'<br>
<br>
- this ability of autonomous production is also a weapon or tool against<br>
employers, i.e. the locus of production can be changed to an autonomous<br>
site<br>
(used by striking journalists already in the past)<br>
<br>
- the ability to mobilize of traditional workers is also 'limited' by<br>
physical locality, so 'immaterial' internetworking may be and actually is<br>
a<br>
plus, see the great movement of the intermittents in France a few years<br>
ago<br>
for an example of labour struggles, or the contemporary mobilization of<br>
Arab<br>
working classes happening right now<br>
<br>
A further observation of scabs is that most often these were NOT workers<br>
from the striking factory, but outsiders, while in the case of free<br>
software<br>
we are talking about people being part of the same community with often<br>
shared values<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Patrick Anderson <<a href="mailto:agnucius@gmail.com" target="_blank">agnucius@gmail.com</a><br>
>wrote:<br>
<br>
�The effectiveness of collective bargaining has always been threatened<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
by independent peers who are willing to accept lower wages and endure<br>
poor working conditions.<br>
<br>
For traditional manufacturing jobs, these 'alternate' workers can<br>
usually be kept from accessing the Means of Production by forming a<br>
physical barrier around the worksite or through various threats that<br>
can be carried out because it is easy to monitor who is actually<br>
entering the establishment.<br>
<br>
Yet these valuable techniques of intimidation and coercion so vital to<br>
protecting Worker Rights are unlikely to be applicable in the realm of<br>
"immaterial production".<br>
<br>
When it comes to something like Free Software, how can we, the<br>
International Programmers of the World, unionize effectively to *stop*<br>
independent programmers from creating the solutions that consumers<br>
need?<br>
<br>
This is a catastrophic issue, as many of these independents are<br>
willing to work not just for a low Wage, but for Free! �They often fix<br>
bugs and add features without any pay at all!<br>
<br>
How can workers in the 'immaterial' sphere possibly "make a living"<br>
with such anarchy and disrespect for organized labor, and with no<br>
ability to stop that production?<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
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