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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi MIke</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I agree with you in some points. Absolutely agree
in the circular and academic arguments of the article (you know, "experts", they
must show their wisdom and scope of knowledge) and in the little engaging
with your discussion. But I was interested not so much in the
deterministic assumptions but in the idea of being working with theoretical
models that maybe could be outdated to explain this world. I mean, Michels, the
concept of oligarchies, the idea of hierarchies, the idea tha afer a revolution,
the net bevame a oligarchy....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>My point is that we, probably, need another
quite different categories to explain the changing world around us in all orders
(politics, society, business, literature), but this categories shoud be
pragmatics and updated. For example, Do we need traditional structures to
keep stability and equilibrium? and what about after a period of
turbulence? (traditional political parties, trade unions, periods of 4
years between elections are useful or not?) or if it�s possible to build
this up with the use of ICT�s and p2p categories?, but Which one?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I�strongly agree with the point of
selfconsciousness of the arab people. There is a new mental paradigm about
the idea of getting big things together, but alone at the same time. I mean
together as citizens, men and women of all religions but at the same time alone
with the traditional supporters (Western countries. Just words (not even words
in the UE case ) but no real/factual support at all).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>On the other hand Mike I Think we need some kind of
model to understand the dynamics of p2p development and that drives us again to
be part of the model (but not in a deterministic way)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Lot of mess anyway</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Best </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Pedro</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gurstein@gmail.com href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">Michael
Gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pg@institutodeliderazgo.com
href="mailto:pg@institutodeliderazgo.com">'Pedro Gioya'</A> ; <A
title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">'P2P Foundation mailing
list'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">'p2p-foundation'</A> ; <A
title=dougald@schoolofeverything.com
href="mailto:dougald@schoolofeverything.com">'Dougald Hine'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 28, 2011 11:22
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost:
Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges of
Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert
Michels?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Hi
Pedro,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Thanks for pointing to this...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>I
was aware of Zeynep's paper but frankly could see little point
in engaging directly with that discussion. To my mind Michel (and
Zeynep's) arguments are essentially academic (in the worst sense) and
self-fulfilling/circular... Any social movement will "inevitably" do such and
such, why, because at some point they stop being movements and therefore need
to transition to something else and that something else is by definition
structured and thus "oligarchic" or whatever. (The arguments are "academic" in
that the terms on which the discussion is engaged are self-defined and
thus the subsequent discussion is limited within these definitions and of
course, that being the case the author can prove whatever they choose to prove
(Alice's argument with the Queen in Alice in Wonderland)--the result to my
mind is a similar result to most such academic arguments--the author shows
themselves to be both clever and irrelevant!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Zeynep's paper is rather cleverer than most (it at least uses data
rather than simply anecdote) but is equally disempowering and in practice
preposterous. What would be the consequences for action in Egypt if the
active agents were to take the argument seriously... They would all go home
and leave the field to Mubarek since why bother to waste blood replacing one
oligarchy with another.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>My
point was rather something different that is, what can we learn from what was
done that can be transferred forward into the process of reconstruction...
There will of course, need to be stability and structures of some sort but
there is one (and perhaps two) differences from previous revolutions. The one
difference is the use of ICTs which allow for some rather profoundly
different/transformational organizational processes. The second partial
difference is that there is now a "memory" or self-consciousness concerning
the failures of previous revolutions and with this self-consciousness comes
the possibility of overcoming this--I don't believe that anything is social
behaviour is inevitable! and neither should anyone who is in any sense
involved with or sympathetic to the idea of p-2-p!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Best,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Mike</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2>Michael Gurstein, Ph.D.<BR>Director: Centre for Community
Informatics Research, Development and Training<BR>Vancouver, CANADA<BR><A
href="http://www.communityinformatics.net/">http://www.communityinformatics.net</A><BR>CA
tel. +1-604-602-0624<BR><BR></FONT></P></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Pedro Gioya
[mailto:pg@institutodeliderazgo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 28,
2011 5:30 PM<BR><B>To:</B> P2P Foundation mailing list; Michael
Gurstein<BR><B>Cc:</B> p2p-foundation; Dougald Hine<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the
Institutional Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek,
Now Can They Overthrow Robert Michels?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Look at this post on the same issue but with
different perspective (Sure you know, but anyway....)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://technosociology.org/?p=366">http://technosociology.org/?p=366</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Pedro</FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=michelsub2004@gmail.com
href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=gurstein@gmail.com
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">Michael Gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation</A> ; <A
title=dougald@schoolofeverything.com
href="mailto:dougald@schoolofeverything.com">Dougald Hine</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 28, 2011 6:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost:
Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges of
Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow
Robert Michels?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>This is really brilliant Michael and I warmly recommend it
to our listmembers,<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Michael Gurstein
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Michel,<BR><BR>I think this is one that you will find
interesting...<BR><BR>M<BR><BR>---------------------------------------------<BR><A
href="http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z"
target=_blank>http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z</A><BR><BR>"In this, I think that
the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia have access to<BR>skills and
resources which were unavailable to earlier movements that
is-the<BR>Internet, social networking, mobile telephony and perhaps most
important,<BR>the experience and knowledge of how to use these in
support of collective<BR>social ends."<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>P2P Foundation: <A href="http://p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.net</A> - <A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</A> <BR><BR>Connect: <A
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</A>; Discuss: <A
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR>Updates:
<A href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://twitter.com/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<P>
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