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<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Hi
Pedro,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Thanks
for pointing to this...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>I was
aware of Zeynep's paper but frankly could see little point in
engaging directly with that discussion. To my mind Michel (and Zeynep's)
arguments are essentially academic (in the worst sense) and
self-fulfilling/circular... Any social movement will "inevitably" do such and
such, why, because at some point they stop being movements and therefore need to
transition to something else and that something else is by definition structured
and thus "oligarchic" or whatever. (The arguments are "academic" in that the
terms on which the discussion is engaged are self-defined and thus the
subsequent discussion is limited within these definitions and of course,
that being the case the author can prove whatever they choose to prove (Alice's
argument with the Queen in Alice in Wonderland)--the result to my mind is a
similar result to most such academic arguments--the author shows themselves to
be both clever and irrelevant!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Zeynep's paper is rather cleverer than most (it at least uses data
rather than simply anecdote) but is equally disempowering and in practice
preposterous. What would be the consequences for action in Egypt if the
active agents were to take the argument seriously... They would all go home and
leave the field to Mubarek since why bother to waste blood replacing one
oligarchy with another.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>My
point was rather something different that is, what can we learn from what was
done that can be transferred forward into the process of reconstruction... There
will of course, need to be stability and structures of some sort but there is
one (and perhaps two) differences from previous revolutions. The one difference
is the use of ICTs which allow for some rather profoundly
different/transformational organizational processes. The second partial
difference is that there is now a "memory" or self-consciousness concerning the
failures of previous revolutions and with this self-consciousness comes the
possibility of overcoming this--I don't believe that anything is social
behaviour is inevitable! and neither should anyone who is in any sense involved
with or sympathetic to the idea of p-2-p!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Best,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Mike</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=895375621-28022011><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2>Michael Gurstein, Ph.D.<BR>Director: Centre for Community
Informatics Research, Development and Training<BR>Vancouver, CANADA<BR><A
href="http://www.communityinformatics.net/">http://www.communityinformatics.net</A><BR>CA
tel. +1-604-602-0624<BR><BR></FONT></P></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Pedro Gioya
[mailto:pg@institutodeliderazgo.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 28,
2011 5:30 PM<BR><B>To:</B> P2P Foundation mailing list; Michael
Gurstein<BR><B>Cc:</B> p2p-foundation; Dougald Hine<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[P2P-F] FW: Blogpost: Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional
Challenges of Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They
Overthrow Robert Michels?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Look at this post on the same issue but with
different perspective (Sure you know, but anyway....)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://technosociology.org/?p=366">http://technosociology.org/?p=366</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Pedro</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=michelsub2004@gmail.com
href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">Michel Bauwens</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=gurstein@gmail.com
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">Michael Gurstein</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org
href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation</A> ; <A
title=dougald@schoolofeverything.com
href="mailto:dougald@schoolofeverything.com">Dougald Hine</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 28, 2011 6:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [P2P-F] FW: Blogpost:
Applying the ICT Lessons of Revolt to the Institutional Challenges of
Reconstruction: They overthrew Hosni Mubarek, Now Can They Overthrow Robert
Michels?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>This is really brilliant Michael and I warmly recommend it to
our listmembers,<BR><BR>Michel<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Michael Gurstein
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Michel,<BR><BR>I think this is one that you will find
interesting...<BR><BR>M<BR><BR>---------------------------------------------<BR><A
href="http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z"
target=_blank>http://wp.me/pJQl5-5Z</A><BR><BR>"In this, I think that the
revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia have access to<BR>skills and resources
which were unavailable to earlier movements that is-the<BR>Internet,
social networking, mobile telephony and perhaps most important,<BR>the
experience and knowledge of how to use these in support of
collective<BR>social ends."<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>P2P Foundation: <A href="http://p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.net</A> - <A
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net"
target=_blank>http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</A> <BR><BR>Connect: <A
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com"
target=_blank>http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</A>; Discuss: <A
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target=_blank>http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</A><BR><BR>Updates:
<A href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://twitter.com/mbauwens</A>; <A
href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens"
target=_blank>http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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