thanks for the exchanges!<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/2/10 Thomas Greco <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">


  
    
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
    I&#39;ve only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that
    there is no solid underlying rationale that assures <b>reciprocity</b>,
    which is basic objective of any monetary system/currency--give as
    much value as you get over a reasonably short period of time.<br>
    <br>
    I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something
    that should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system. <br>
    Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and
    accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT
    reflected in the supply of exchange media (money).<br>
    <br>
    Anyone who has read my latest book, <i>The End of Money</i>, should
    realize that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or
    debits in a credit clearing system) is determined by the amount of
    trading, not by the number of participants. It is the total amount
    of credit that has been extended by sellers to buyers that has not
    yet been cleared by those buyers having reciprocated by selling. The
    supply of &quot;money&quot; (credit) outstanding, therefore, is automatically
    determined by the needs of the traders, increasing and decreasing in
    accordance with transaction (economic) activity.<br>
    There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be
    granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the
    sales history of each account.. <br>
    <br>
    E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental
    principles. I wish more people would read his books.<br>
    <br>
    <pre cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com" target="_blank">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand
Website: <a href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com" target="_blank">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Blogs: Beyond Money: <a href="http://beyondmoney.net" target="_blank">http://beyondmoney.net</a>
Tom&#39;s News and Views: <a href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com" target="_blank">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg" target="_blank">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, &quot;The End of Money and the Future of Civilization&quot; from
Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea
Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
</pre><div><div></div><div class="h5">
    <br>
    On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
    <blockquote type="cite">Dear Michel, Stephane,�
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I have looked at the English introduction pages,
        unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand
        something fairly technical and complex.�</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend
        incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will
        work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money
        creation by all members of the system, and with time the
        monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of
        monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><a href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules" target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules</a></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary
        mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that
        the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the
        same amount of business means that products, or anything that is
        exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as
        time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be
        worth less and less as time passes.�This is not a good basis for
        a monetary system.�</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>It would be rather �easy however, to engineer the system for
        price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money
        to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary
        value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some
        of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more
        value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make
        sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a
        fixed number of members. After the period of initialization,
        money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of
        prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant.
        Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could
        grow in line with a growing number of members. The total
        monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants,
        and prices in the system would tend to be stable.�</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be
        workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have
        reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total
        monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this
        goal be reached.�</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Kind regards</div>
      <div>Sepp</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
        <div>
          <div style="word-wrap: break-word; font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
                                    <div style="margin: 0px; font: 16px Helvetica; min-height: 19px;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><font size="4"><span style="font-size: 16px;">
                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 20px;"><b><i>&quot;The
                                                  individual is supreme
                                                  and finds the way
                                                  through intuition&quot;</i></b></div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font: 19px Helvetica; min-height: 19px;"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 24px;"><span style="font-size: 20px;"><a href="http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/" target="_blank">http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/</a></span>��</div>

                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 20px;"><a href="http://www.laleva.org" target="_blank">http://www.laleva.org</a></div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font: 23px Helvetica; min-height: 19px;"><span style="font-size: 20px;"><a href="http://blog.hasslberger.com/" target="_blank">http://blog.hasslberger.com/</a></span>�</div>

                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font: 20px Helvetica; min-height: 19px;"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger</a></div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font: 20px Helvetica; min-height: 19px;">
                                              <div><a href="http://twitter.com/healthsupreme" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/healthsupreme</a></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font: 20px Helvetica; min-height: 19px;"><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0px; font: 20px Helvetica; min-height: 19px;">.</div>
                                          </span></font></span></div>
                                  </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div>
          <div>On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:</div>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">Many thanks Stephane,<br>
            <br>
            I have created a overview page at <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project</a><br>
            <br>
            Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and
            eventually put it into context of other projects in this
            related space?<br>
            <br>
            I think the innovative part here is that it is directly
            linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this
            is why it&#39;s particularly worth supporting,<br>
            <br>
            Michel<br>
            <br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM,
              St�phane Laborde <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:laborde_stephane@yahoo.fr" target="_blank">laborde_stephane@yahoo.fr</a>&gt;</span>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                <div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> You can present
                  Open-UDC with :<br>
                  <br>
                  General presentation : <a href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/start" target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/start</a><br>
                  <br>
                  And Money Rules : <a href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules" target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules</a><br>
                  <br>
                  You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal
                  following three steps :<br>
                  <br>
                  1) Implementation with centralised server<br>
                  2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation<br>
                  3) Implementation with P2P System<br>
                  <br>
                  Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The
                  technical system in charge of the money rules is
                  independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.<br>
                  <pre cols="72">St�phane Laborde
9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS
Tel. 09 54 87 03 18
Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99</pre>
                  <br>
                  Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a �crit�:
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div>Cher Stephane,<br>
                        <br>
                        If you have any non-technical text on this, I&#39;d
                        like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,<br>
                        <br>
                        Un grand merci!<br>
                        <br>
                        Michel<br>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at
                          12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail..com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">didn&#39;t
                            know that one! will definitely check out and
                            add to <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money</a>,<br>
                            <font color="#888888"><br>
                              Michel</font>
                            <div>
                              <div><br>
                                <br>
                                <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8,
                                  2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:olivierauber2@gmail.com" target="_blank">olivierauber2@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Ok!<br>
                                    <br>
                                    J&#39;oubliais, La Th�orie Relative de
                                    la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du
                                    d�veloppement du <br>
                                    <h1>Open-Universal Digital Currency
                                      project</h1>
                                    <a href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/start" target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/start</a><br>
                                    <br>
                                    Et �a c&#39;est en anglais, entre
                                    autres...
                                    <div>
                                      <div><br>
                                        <br>
                                        Olivier<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div class="gmail_quote">2011/2/8
                                          Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
                                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">thanks a
                                            lot Olivier, if you hear
                                            from the english translation
                                            at some point, thanks for
                                            letting me know!
                                            <div>
                                              <div><br>
                                                <br>
                                                <div class="gmail_quote">On
                                                  Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at
                                                  12:19 PM, olivier
                                                  auber <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:olivierauber2@gmail.com" target="_blank">olivierauber2@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                                  wrote:<br>
                                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Bonjour
                                                    matinal Michel,<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Sur ce sujet,
                                                    j&#39;attire ton
                                                    attention sur un
                                                    auteur fran�ais �
                                                    l&#39;origine d&#39;une tr�s
                                                    int�ressante
                                                    &quot;th�orie relative de
                                                    la monnaie&quot; qui
                                                    permet de calculer
                                                    tr�s exactement
                                                    diff�rentes choses,
                                                    notamment
                                                    l&#39;expansion de la
                                                    masse mon�taire
                                                    conduisant � une
                                                    �conomie durable,
                                                    ainsi que le montant
                                                    du Dividende
                                                    Universel qui serait
                                                    le vecteur de cette
                                                    expansion.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Il s&#39;appelle
                                                    St�phane Laborde.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Le livre est ici : <a href="http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html" target="_blank">http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html</a><br>

                                                    Le blog l� : <a href="http://www.creationmonetaire.info/" target="_blank">http://www.creationmonetaire.info/</a><br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Malheureusement,
                                                    tout cela n&#39;existe
                                                    qu&#39;en fran�ais pour
                                                    le moment.<br>
                                                    Un traduction en
                                                    anglais est en
                                                    cours, je crois.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Amicalement<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Olivier<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <div class="gmail_quote">2011/2/8

                                                      Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
                                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div> <br>
                                                          Dear Sepp,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          because the
                                                          discussion is
                                                          largely
                                                          technical,
                                                          this is all I
                                                          can do, but
                                                          perhaps you
                                                          can add an
                                                          extra comment?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          also, if you
                                                          are in contact
                                                          with Marc,
                                                          please give
                                                          him a chance
                                                          to say
                                                          something
                                                          about the
                                                          evolution of
                                                          the bibo
                                                          project since
                                                          december 2009,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Michel<br>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p><a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent
                                                          Link to An
                                                          update on
                                                          BIBO,
                                                          financial
                                                          stability
                                                          standards, and
                                                          the debt-virus
                                                          hypothesis" target="_blank"><br>
                                                          </a></p>
                                                          <img src="" alt="photo of Michel Bauwens" align="left">
                                                          <div>Michel
                                                          Bauwens</div>
                                                          <div>16th
                                                          February 2011</div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <p>In December
                                                          2009, Sepp
                                                          Hasslberger <a>introduced to us</a> Bibo, a proposed standard
                                                          for stable
                                                          currencies,
                                                          that would
                                                          replace the
                                                          current
                                                          inherently
                                                          unstable
                                                          banking money
                                                          system.</p>
                                                          <p>This
                                                          article has
                                                          become our
                                                          most comment
                                                          rich article,
                                                          in particular
                                                          through a
                                                          recurring
                                                          debate between
                                                          one of the
                                                          Bibo
                                                          co-authors
                                                          Marc, and
                                                          Ardeshir
                                                          Mehta.</p>
                                                          <p>Ardeshir
                                                          has written an
                                                          article that
                                                          challenges one
                                                          of the main
                                                          points of
                                                          monetary
                                                          reformers,
                                                          i.e. that the
                                                          current system
                                                          leads to the
                                                          infinite
                                                          creation of
                                                          debt through
                                                          compound
                                                          interest.</p>
                                                          <p>You can
                                                          find it <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html" target="_blank">here</a>.</p>
                                                          <p>The
                                                          context:</p>
                                                          <p><i>�Currently,
                                                          most if not
                                                          all money is
                                                          loaned into
                                                          existence by
                                                          banks, and is
                                                          thus based on
                                                          interest-bearing
                                                          debt. There is
                                                          no question
                                                          that neither
                                                          interest nor
                                                          debt-based
                                                          money are good
                                                          for society,
                                                          and I have
                                                          written
                                                          denouncing
                                                          both debt and
                                                          interest
                                                          elsewhere.
                                                          However, there
                                                          is a fairly
                                                          common thesis,
                                                          based on the
                                                          fact that
                                                          money is
                                                          loaned into
                                                          existence as
                                                          interest-bearing
                                                          debt, that if
                                                          new loans are
                                                          not
                                                          continually
                                                          being issued
                                                          in
                                                          ever-increasing
                                                          amounts,
                                                          enough money
                                                          will not be
                                                          created to pay
                                                          the interest
                                                          on existing
                                                          loans; and as
                                                          a result, at
                                                          least some
                                                          those loans
                                                          will be
                                                          defaulted
                                                          upon,
                                                          resulting in
                                                          inevitable
                                                          foreclosures.
                                                          �</i></p>
                                                          <br clear="all">
                                                          <font color="#888888"><br>
                                                          -- <br>
                                                          P2P
                                                          Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>�
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                                                      </blockquote>
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                                                    <font color="#888888"><br>
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                                                      <br>
                                                      -- <br>
                                                      Olivier Auber<br>
                                                      0675038880<br>
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                                    <font color="#888888">-- <br>
                                      Olivier Auber<br>
                                      0675038880<br>
                                    </font></blockquote>
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                        P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>�
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                    <hr>
                    <hr noshade size="1">
                    <p color="#000000" align="left">Aucun virus trouv�
                      dans ce message.<br>
                      Analyse effectu�e par AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.fr/" target="_blank">www.avg.fr</a><br>
                      Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de donn�es virale:
                      1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011</p>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
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            P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>�
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          </blockquote>
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      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
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