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If you can prove your theory of monetary relativity, I will applaud
you. <br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Blogs: Beyond Money: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://beyondmoney.net">http://beyondmoney.net</a>
Tom's News and Views: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from
Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea
Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
</pre>
<br>
On 02/10/2011 2:22 AM, St�phane Laborde wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4D53AE66.4030107@yahoo.fr" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
Le 10/02/2011 09:37, Thomas Greco a �crit�:
<blockquote cite="mid:4D53A3E4.2090207@mindspring.com" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that
there is no solid underlying rationale that assures <b>reciprocity</b>,
which is basic objective of any monetary system/currency--give
as much value as you get over a reasonably short period of time.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This means nothing as value is totally relative to any individual.<br>
<br>
Neither Leonard da Vinci nor Albert Einstein has received such a
"recyprocity". It should have been impossible to any member of
their community as their GIFT of VALUE had no common mesure, and
was not understood.<br>
<br>
This is why this false idea conduce all pre-relativistic thought
into crisis wall. By not understanding FREEDOM and CREATIVITY, as
basic and fundamental element of any economy.<br>
<br>
Creativity has no mesure.<br>
<br>
Exchange is only an agreement, not a common mesure.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4D53A3E4.2090207@mindspring.com" type="cite">
<br>
I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something
that should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system. <br>
Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production
and accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that
is NOT reflected in the supply of exchange media (money).<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Missundestanding between VALUE (production) which is an INDIVIDUAL
MESURE, and MONEY, which is a COMMON (community) agreement to
allow exchanges.<br>
<br>
I don't agree to any "production" you could define, neither
millions of people. What you define as "production" is
"destruction" for other people, and no one can define it but
denying FREEDOM of choice of what is value and what it is not.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4D53A3E4.2090207@mindspring.com" type="cite">
<br>
Anyone who has read my latest book, <i>The End of Money</i>,
should realize that the amount of money outstanding (total
credits or debits in a credit clearing system) is determined by
the amount of trading, not by the number of participants. It is
the total amount of credit that has been extended by sellers to
buyers that has not yet been cleared by those buyers having
reciprocated by selling. The supply of "money" (credit)
outstanding, therefore, is automatically determined by the needs
of the traders, increasing and decreasing in accordance with
transaction (economic) activity.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I deny ANY justification of creating money by CREDIT.<br>
<br>
This is contradictory with RELATIVE MONEY THEORY. Relative Money
Theory deny the right to any individual to CREATE money by credit.
Relative Money Theory is only compatible with 100% monney created
by universal dividend as only acceptable basis.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4D53A3E4.2090207@mindspring.com" type="cite">
There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can
be granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly
by the sales history of each account.. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This denying DEATH of people as liberating debts, and so create
money for nothing.<br>
<br>
Births and Deaths are not understood by classical analyses. Their
ignore deaths, and deny the right to be born. They don't
understand what is a discrete flow.<br>
<br>
Eternel ignorance of reality of births and deaths is the basis of
all generations crisis since 10 000 years.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4D53A3E4.2090207@mindspring.com" type="cite">
<br>
E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental
principles. I wish more people would read his books.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Blogs: Beyond Money: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://beyondmoney.net">http://beyondmoney.net</a>
Tom's News and Views: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from
Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea
Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
</pre>
<br>
On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:E17666BC-4760-4B1E-A2A4-C82AF87ACE95@lastrega.com"
type="cite">Dear Michel, Stephane,�
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have looked at the English introduction pages,
unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand
something fairly technical and complex.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While I am happy to see that there is a universal
dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure
that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is
monthly money creation by all members of the system, and
with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic
for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of
members on this page</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules">http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>shows that there is a rather steep increase of the
monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This
means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More
money for the same amount of business means that products,
or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to
cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that
each unit of money will be worth less and less as time
passes.�This is not a good basis for a monetary system.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be rather �easy however, to engineer the system
for price stability. All that would need to be done is for
the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on
monetary value, once it has been created, would need to
start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it
expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be
determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass
could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members.
After the period of initialization, money created equals
money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue,
because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism
would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line
with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass
would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices
in the system would tend to be stable.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would
not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should
have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the
total monetary mass in accordance with the number of
members, can this goal be reached.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards</div>
<div>Sepp</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; font-family:
Helvetica;"><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
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class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0,
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
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white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing:
0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color:
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style="border-collapse: separate; color:
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class="Apple-style-span"
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class="Apple-style-span"
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word-spacing: 0px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: medium;
font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: medium;
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normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
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none; white-space: normal; widows:
2; word-spacing: 0px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px;">
<div style="margin: 0px; font:
16px Helvetica; min-height:
19px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: medium;"><font
class="Apple-style-span"
size="4"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: 16px;">
<div style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 20px;"><b><i>"The
individual is
supreme and finds
the way through
intuition"</i></b></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 19px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 24px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 20px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/">http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/</a></span>��</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 20px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.laleva.org">http://www.laleva.org</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 23px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 20px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.hasslberger.com/">http://blog.hasslberger.com/</a></span>�</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger">http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;">
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/healthsupreme">http://twitter.com/healthsupreme</a></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;">.</div>
</span></font></span></div>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">Many thanks Stephane,<br>
<br>
I have created a overview page at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project">http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project</a><br>
<br>
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project
and eventually put it into context of other projects in
this related space?<br>
<br>
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly
linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and
this is why it's particularly worth supporting,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45
PM, St�phane Laborde <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:laborde_stephane@yahoo.fr">laborde_stephane@yahoo.fr</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt
0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> You can
present Open-UDC with :<br>
<br>
General presentation : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/start"
target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/start</a><br>
<br>
And Money Rules : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules"
target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules</a><br>
<br>
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive
goal following three steps :<br>
<br>
1) Implementation with centralised server<br>
2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation<br>
3) Implementation with P2P System<br>
<br>
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The
technical system in charge of the money rules is
independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.<br>
<pre cols="72">St�phane Laborde
9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS
Tel. 09 54 87 03 18
Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99</pre>
<br>
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a �crit�:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">Cher Stephane,<br>
<br>
If you have any non-technical text on this,
I'd like to announce it on the p2p
foundation blog,<br>
<br>
Un grand merci!<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8, 2011
at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail..com"
target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
204); padding-left: 1ex;">didn't know
that one! will definitely check out and
add to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money"
target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money</a>,<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Michel</font>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb
8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber
<span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:olivierauber2@gmail.com"
target="_blank">olivierauber2@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">Ok!<br>
<br>
J'oubliais, La Th�orie Relative
de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base
du d�veloppement du <br>
<h1>Open-Universal Digital
Currency project</h1>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/start"
target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/start</a><br>
<br>
Et �a c'est en anglais, entre
autres...
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/2/8
Michel Bauwens <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt
0pt 0.8ex; border-left:
1px solid rgb(204, 204,
204); padding-left:
1ex;">thanks a lot
Olivier, if you hear
from the english
translation at some
point, thanks for
letting me know!
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, Feb 8, 2011
at 12:19 PM,
olivier auber <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:olivierauber2@gmail.com"
target="_blank">olivierauber2@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:
0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;
border-left: 1px
solid rgb(204,
204, 204);
padding-left:
1ex;">Bonjour
matinal Michel,<br>
<br>
Sur ce sujet,
j'attire ton
attention sur un
auteur fran�ais
� l'origine
d'une tr�s
int�ressante
"th�orie
relative de la
monnaie" qui
permet de
calculer tr�s
exactement
diff�rentes
choses,
notamment
l'expansion de
la masse
mon�taire
conduisant � une
�conomie
durable, ainsi
que le montant
du Dividende
Universel qui
serait le
vecteur de cette
expansion.<br>
<br>
Il s'appelle
St�phane
Laborde.<br>
<br>
Le livre est ici
: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html"
target="_blank">http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html</a><br>
Le blog l� : <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.creationmonetaire.info/"
target="_blank">http://www.creationmonetaire.info/</a><br>
<br>
Malheureusement,
tout cela
n'existe qu'en
fran�ais pour le
moment.<br>
Un traduction en
anglais est en
cours, je crois.<br>
<br>
Amicalement<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">2011/2/8
Michel Bauwens
<span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com"
target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:
0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;
border-left:
1px solid
rgb(204, 204,
204);
padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<div> <br>
Dear Sepp,<br>
<br>
because the
discussion is
largely
technical,
this is all I
can do, but
perhaps you
can add an
extra comment?<br>
<br>
also, if you
are in contact
with Marc,
please give
him a chance
to say
something
about the
evolution of
the bibo
project since
december 2009,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<p><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869" rel="bookmark"
title="Permanent
Link to An
update on
BIBO,
financial
stability
standards, and
the debt-virus
hypothesis"
target="_blank"><br>
</a></p>
<img
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="x-msg://159/" alt="photo of Michel Bauwens" align="left">
<div>Michel
Bauwens</div>
<div>16th
February 2011</div>
<br>
<p>In December
2009, Sepp
Hasslberger <a
moz-do-not-send="true">introduced to us</a> Bibo, a proposed standard
for stable
currencies,
that would
replace the
current
inherently
unstable
banking money
system.</p>
<p>This
article has
become our
most comment
rich article,
in particular
through a
recurring
debate between
one of the
Bibo
co-authors
Marc, and
Ardeshir
Mehta.</p>
<p>Ardeshir
has written an
article that
challenges one
of the main
points of
monetary
reformers,
i.e. that the
current system
leads to the
infinite
creation of
debt through
compound
interest.</p>
<p>You can
find it <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html"
target="_blank">here</a>.</p>
<p>The
context:</p>
<p><i>�Currently,
most if not
all money is
loaned into
existence by
banks, and is
thus based on
interest-bearing
debt. There is
no question
that neither
interest nor
debt-based
money are good
for society,
and I have
written
denouncing
both debt and
interest
elsewhere.
However, there
is a fairly
common thesis,
based on the
fact that
money is
loaned into
existence as
interest-bearing
debt, that if
new loans are
not
continually
being issued
in
ever-increasing
amounts,
enough money
will not be
created to pay
the interest
on existing
loans; and as
a result, at
least some
those loans
will be
defaulted
upon,
resulting in
inevitable
foreclosures.
�</i></p>
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0675038880<br>
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<hr>
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1">
<p color="#000000" align="left">Aucun virus
trouv� dans ce message.<br>
Analyse effectu�e par AVG - <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.fr/" target="_blank">www.avg.fr</a><br>
Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de donn�es virale:
1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011</p>
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P2P Foundation: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>�
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<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1">
<p class="avgcert" color="#000000" align="left">Aucun virus
trouv� dans ce message.<br>
Analyse effectu�e par AVG - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.fr">www.avg.fr</a><br>
Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de donn�es virale: 1435/3433 - Date:
09/02/2011</p>
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