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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Hi Michel</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">That's what Joe Corneli wrote to me right now:</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">"PS.  Incidentally, as it turns out I did recently exchange</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">some emails with Michel Bauwens, the founder of the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Foundation for Peer-to-Peer Alternatives, where your wiki</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">page is hosted.  A few comments from him are in the blog</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">for my Open Governance and Learning P2PU course,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#008000"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u>http://open-governance-and-learning.posterous.com/</u></span></font><font face="Arial"><span
style="font-size:10pt">."</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">So you know PlanetMath already :).</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Here's the link to two papers I found quite interesting.</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Joe wrote:</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">"* I did most of the drafting for this:</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial" color="#008000"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u>http://wiki.planetmath.org/AsteroidMeta/metacommons_manifesto</u></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">* I also wrote: </span></font><font face="Arial" color="#008000"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u>http://metameso.org/~joe/docs/metacommons-survey.pdf"</u></span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Joe has modified the thoughts expressed there and now</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">is heading more in a direction that seems to overlap with</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">an understanding of demonetized metacommons that I </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">would promote.</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Concerning the "temperature" of the list, I would suggest </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">cooling.</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Concerning further "projects", I would find it useful to think</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">about some kind of old-style hardcopy publication of the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">kind of debates here. Just in case the internet breaks down</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">due to Peak Oil *g*</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">I was wondering since the impressive</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">Crottorf-Meeting which gave rise to this list (indirectly), if</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">it would be interesting for a broader audience beyond </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">cyberspace to listen to the sort of arguments exchanged here.</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">best to all, Andreas</span></font></div>
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<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> Hi Andreas,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> perhaps you can confirm this, but I once read a ILO reference that</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> calculated coops were actually the world's largest employer, but of</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> course, they are integrated in the current system. My view is that</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> coops are by definition either integrated in capitalism, or in the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> market sphere, since they operate as a market entity, even if they</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> have internal equality.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> a very interesting path for me is the Venture Communist proposal by</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> Dmytri Kleiner, http://p2pfoundation.net/Telekommunist_Manifesto, and</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> its related Peer Production License,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> http://p2pfoundation.net/Peer_Production_License, which we will likely</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> adopt in our new P2P Foundation Cooperative (p2p.coop), to be launched</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> soon. This insures that surplus value stays within the commoners</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> community, but has the disadvantage of slowing down the expansion of</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> an open commons, through its non-commercial clause. It is in effect a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> semi-open (or semi-closed commons), which is why it is so strongly</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> opposed by the free software community, but I believe it does make</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> sense in the context of building a counter-economy.  Coops could adopt</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> these two important principles, in order to create a non-capitalist</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> economy,i.e. a shared open design commons, i.e. a refusal to enclose</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> knowledge; the PPL which keeps capital flowing within the alternative</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> economy; and finally, it could use open accounting which would,  in</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> the slightly longer term, permit it to adopt resource-based economics,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> i.e. non-monetary exchange mechanisms. Fully distributed open</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> accounting would allow any entity to check available production and</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> such global distributed coordination, which has already proven to be</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> fully workable for complex products such as Linux or Wikipedia, could</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> then be extented to the field of material production. The latter is of</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> course at this stage, an intuition and hypothesis of my part.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> can you send some info on planetmath?</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> Michel</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 8:17 PM, <andreas.exner@chello.at> wrote:</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Hi Michel</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     I consider initiatives such as Planetmath, that want to expand</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     metacommons by using funding by institutions and businesses, as</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     paramount.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     The incorporation of "social values" into business might also be</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     seen as a last step of capital to colonize lifeworld. So I am not</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     so cheerful about this, while acknowledging at the same time, that</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     it might sometimes open up new opportunities for commons.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Solidarity Economy is not only about "normal" enterprises, but</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     also about demonetized (and then, of course, strictly</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     non-capitalist) initiatives.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Talking about capitalism, one points toward a debate of what</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     constitutes capital. Concerning Mondragon, workers are at the same</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     time capitalists, they internalized the class contradiction (it</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     would not be overcome by multiplying "Mondragon" - as soon as a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     labour market appears, the initial class split also comes to the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     fore again.) Nevertheless, Mondragon is a very important example</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     that steps forward to a more direct and egalitarian form of</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     cooperation are possible and can even coexist (for a while and</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     under specific circumstances, i.e. Basque nationalism...) with</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     capital.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     best, Andreas</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > Hi Andreas,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > this I think is a crucial insight:</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > "Certain forms of business might reinforce commons, but only to</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     the > detriment of > business, in the long run. Probably, the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     structural and personal > shortsigthedness > of capitalists will</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     enable to exploit this asymetrical synergie without > harming the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > "mutual relationship" in the short run." > > Lenin had
a famous</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     phrase, 'they will sell the ropes we will hang them with" > > But</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     what we are seeing now is more than that: a huge movement towards</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     market > forms that are not geared towards profit maximisation at</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     all: cooperatives, > solidarity economics, social economy, fair</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     trade, mission-oriented > enterprises, social investing, and many</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     more. They operate within > capitalism, as do we all, but they are</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     not themselves capitalistic in nature > if they do not strive for</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     profit maximisation. Each case is of course > different and has to</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     be looked at carefully. For example, Mondragon is > currently</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     involved in a strike action by Polish workers who feel exploited ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     by their non-cooperative holdings. In this case I would stay, it</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     is great > that Mondragon shows the viability of cooperatives, but</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     it is regretful, and > must be changedd, that they are creating a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     two-tier system where they > themselves act as capitalist vis a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     vis exploited labourers abroad. > > These are significant</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     developments, but the question is: what do they mean, > especially</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     in the context of the commons. My take would be that a number of ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     these developments are commons-positive and can be used by</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     commoners to > strengthen commons and move towards a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     commons-centered economy > > Michel > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     5:55 PM, <andreas.exner@chello.at> wrote: > > > Structures do not</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     exist beyond people, and "people", in the sense of > > subjects,
></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > do not exist beyond structures. > > > > We should not forget,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     that people do not reproduce as simply "people", but > > as >
></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     wage labourers and capitalists or petty commodity producers or</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     peasants. > > Those subjects will tend to reproduce their status</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     (or improve on it, i.e. > > becoming > > capitalists). > > >
></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Reproduction and status improvement function within structures. In</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     as far > > as > > people tend to reproduce and improve their lives</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     and status within those > > very > > structures, they will defend</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     those structures (by force of the state). > > > > So capitalists</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     will defend their position to exploit labourers. And > > labourers</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     will > > defend their position of being exploited - in a way that</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     seems "acceptable" > > to them. > > Peasants will ususally
defend</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     the possibility to become small capitalists > > and > > sell to</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     regional and/or global markets (most of them currently do this</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     only > > to a very > > limited extent, worldwide). > > >
> While</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     markets were not invented by capitalists, they defend them because</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     it > > is > > the market - as long as the capitalist mode of</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     production exists - that > > enables them > > as a class to</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     exploit labourers. (And it is the capitalist mode of > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     production > > that propagates the market - but this discussion we</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     already had...). That > > holds true for > > any business that</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     participates on the social surplus value pressed out of > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     labourers. > > > > While markets are not controlled by</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     capitalists, capitalists do control > > labourers > > directly</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     within the realm of their domination, i.e. the office, factory, ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > outgrower > > associations etc... So strengthening commons means</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     limiting markets and > > abolishings > > capital. > > > >
Certain</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     forms of business might reinforce commons, but only to the > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     detriment of > > business, in the long run. Probably, the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     structural and personal > > shortsigthedness > > of capitalists</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     will enable to exploit this asymetrical synergie without > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     harming the > > "mutual relationship" in the short run. > >
> > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     "Non profit business" -- there is no such thing. Business means</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     profit, > > if > > there is no profit, you are quickly out of</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     business. > > > > So: "are these people 'enemies'"? No,
capitalism</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     is not about people, it > > is about structures being exclusive or</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     inclusive. Thus "enemies" are not > > people, but those structures</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     which exclude people. > > > > Generally, markets are exclusive,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     because you can not participate if you > > have nothing to sell or</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     to buy -- be it on the world market or on Tahiti > > square. > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > Thus business can not be a commons. But there can be an intimate</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > relationship between commons and business, which has to be</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     analysed > > carefully. > > > > While we say "There is
no commons</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     without commoning" the same holds true > > for business: "There
is</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     no business without commoning", but the > > relationship addressed</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     here is completely different. > > > > Best, > > Stefan >
> > > On</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     2011-02-08 10:07, Massimo De Angelis wrote: > > > you can work out</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     the answer by reflecting on the motto of the web > > > page</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://fearlessrevolution.com > > > > > > : "collaboration
is the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     new competition" . . .well actually, > > > > > > competition
has</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     always been based on degrees of collaboration, > > > pitting</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     different forms of social cooperation  one against the other > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     . . .the ideas of this web page would be great, assuming 90% of</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     our > > > livelihoods was reproduced outside capitalist markets,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     so as if we > > > really needed something outside the commons,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     well, this could be how > > > to go for it . . .But as they stand,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     they are just another way to > > > make business, one business</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     strategy among many, maybe preferable > > > and kinder than</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     others, maybe its novelty may help some in time of > > > crisis</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     and in presence of lack of imagination and effective powers > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     to work out a non- profit business alternative,  . . .hence, if ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > contingent necessity requires it, let us collaborate . . . but</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > please, do not conflate this type of stuff being debated on</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     the > > > Harward Business Review with the emancipatory practices</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     that are > > > core for the production of a socially and</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     environmentally just world > > > . . .please, just look at Egypt,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     they have businesses along many > > > commons in Tahiri square > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     (http://english.aljazeera.net//news/middleeast/2011/02/20112716264</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     44 > > > 61244.html ), small vendors, but they operate within the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     contexts of > > > the commons, hence they are not the enemy, but</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     they reinforce the > > > commons. They would become opponents in</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     the very moment they were to > > > declare that all in the square</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     had to organise as a market, or if > > > they were to define</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     procedures that for every problem one had to > > > find a market</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     solution and this is precisely what seems to be > > > happening</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>      in the example you are circulating. > > > > > > m >
> > > > > On</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     8 Feb 2011, at 07:51, Michel Bauwens wrote: > > > > I got this</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     from Pat Kane, an initiative that resonates with Umair > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Haque's Capitalist Manifesto > > > > > > > > See:</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://fearlessrevolution.com/blog/introducing-common.html > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > "Benefiting people, communities, society, the environment</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     and > > > > future generations is the new advantage in business.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Our new > > > > capitalist brand is about transitioning from</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     competitive advantage > > > > to collaborative advantage. COMMON</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     is a brand that is community > > > > designed, community owned,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     and community directed. It is a single > > > > open source brand —</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     a living network — for rapidly prototyping > > > > many</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     progressive businesses that unleash creativity to solve > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     social problems." > > > > > > > > Michel's comments:
> > > > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > why is this interesting, well, in the context of the stress that</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > our friends like Massimo and Silvia Federico place on</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     opposing > > > > 'capitalist commons' > > > > > >
> > my question</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     is the following, generally, as I don't know much about > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     this particular initiative: > > > > > > > > - are these
people</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     'enemies' simply because they are > > > > 'pro-capitalist' > >
> ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > - or are they friends because their heart is in the right</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     place, > > > > and they want to create and share value, and have</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     generally > > > > progressive social goals > > > > >
> > > This is</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     not just a matter of analysis, but also of language, and it > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > poses a key question: should a new 'hegemony' (not the right</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     word, > > > > I know, but even in a distributed world, something</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     like that does > > > > exist) for a progressive commons approach,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     not necessarily include > > > > progressive social and other</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     enterpreneurs ? > > > > > > > > My answer would tend to
be yes, as</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     many young people in the West, > > > > but even outside the West,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     especially here in East Asia, think that > > > > way; they want to</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     see progress, don't believe in old-style > > > > socialism,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     believe in cooperation and sharing, but believe only > > > > free</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     enterpreneurship offers progress and dynamism for their > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     society and their own projects. > > > > > > > > Such an
approach</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     would require an analysis that distinguished > > > > exploitative</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     commons approaches, from genuine commons; but also in > > > > a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     language that doesn't construct such people as enemies, and a > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > pragmatic openness. > > > > > > > > To come
back to the notion</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     of capitalist/anticapitalist commons, > > > > through an example.</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > > > > > Take the free software movement, a movement
of a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     particular labour > > > > aristocracy, that has resulted in the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     creation of a strong commons, > > > > strong relatively autonomous</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     communities, but also with a strong > > > > ecology of supportive</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     corporate entities, that both profit from > > > > those commons,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     but also, pay wages to free software developers, > > > > practice</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     various forms of benefit sharing, and support the > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     communities and commons in various ways. (this of course needs to</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > be problematized, but nevertheless, this is an important</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     side of > > > > the equation) > > > > > > > >
So here we have a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     commons that is both instrumental to corporate > > > > entities</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     and 'capitalism', but also beneficial in substantial ways > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     to a particular type of knowledge workers. In this scenario, both</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > sides have both concurring and antagonistic interests. >
></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > > > The model of the free software movement is not unique,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     as it is now > > > > largely replicated in many other open</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     knowledge, open design and > > > > open manufacturing projects,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     for whom it served as a successfull > > > > template > > >
> > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > I'm  not advocating either uncritical support of the model, nor</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     a > > > > pure antagonistic approach, but rather an approach that</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     starts with > > > > the interests of the peer producing</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     communities and their commons, > > > > and looks at how they can</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     optimally reproduce within current > > > > economic and power</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     structures, and advance their goals, step by > > > > step, until</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     they are stronger to achieve more fundamental > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     transformations, > > > > > > > > In many cases, the creation
of a</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     successful ecology of corporate > > > > entities, and the</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     attraction of progressive young enterpreneurs who > > > > may be</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     willing to create non profit maximisation market-operating > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     entitities, will be a sine qua non for the social reproduction and</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > growth of the concrete commons and their</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     contributors/users > > > > > > > > Michel > > >
> > > > > > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundatio</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > n > > > > > > > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://friendfeed.com/ > > > > mbauwens;</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://twitter.com/mbauwens; > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > > > Commons</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/ > > > > > >
></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     _______________________________________________ > > > > Commoning</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     mailing list > > > > Commoning@lists.wissensallmende.de > >
> ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > -- > > Start here: www.meretz.de > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     _______________________________________________ > > Commoning</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     mailing list > > Commoning@lists.wissensallmende.de > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > _______________________________________________ > > Commoning</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     mailing list > > Commoning@lists.wissensallmende.de > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning > > > ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect:</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: ></span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundatio</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     n > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens;</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > Commons Strategies Group,</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">>     http://www.commonsstrategies.org/</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> -- </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/</span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
<div align="left"><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt">> </span></font></div>
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