hi sam,<br><br>thanks for this very interesting contribution ..<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Samuel Rose <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im">On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Dear Samuel,<br>
><br>
> I really want to move in that direction, and hope the p2p-f can contribute<br>
> to the creation of a political expression ...<br>
><br>
> For me the first step is to establish some policy framework/proposals,<br>
<br>
</div>Hi Michel, do you already have this work somewhere on the wiki in any<br>
stage of completion?<br></blockquote><div><br><br>Not completion, but a hopefully usable collection of raw material at <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Policy">http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Policy</a> <br></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
A few questions/issues I can think of:<br>
<br>
1. How would a politician know where the best first places to start<br>
campaigning within the existing system are (where is P2P politics<br>
applied today most effective?) That's an open ended question to get<br>
people thinking about where they would begin within the existing<br>
systems as a candidate, activist, lobbyist, or other agent.<br></blockquote><div><br>The p2p movement, in the broad sense, needs its own advocacy organisations, who can mobilize sympathetic opinion in support of friendly politicians, and opposing unfriendly politicians. One way this happened is throught the quite successfull campaings of La Quadrature du Net, though just a bunch of French people 'in a garage', through their connection with internet rights organisations and monitoring of the european parliament space, they very rapidly mobilized against very bad legislation against filesharing. They did not win, but the effort was impressive, and did substantially diminish the harm of the new legislation. They have a whole set of tools to identify sympathetic politicians (usually mostly Pirate Party and Greens, and only a scattering of others, but most of the attacks come from the right, though not exclusively)<br>
<br>Now, QDN is focused narrowly on internet rights.<br><br>Another example is the FC Forum is concerned with free culture and produces charters that express a consensus amongst participants, and guidance for sympathetic politicians. I'm not sure about the pan-european or global influence, but at least in spain, the spanish group has experienced several successes.<br>
<br>So, how can we extend these efforts to every sector of activity we care about?<br><br>THis is beyond our capabilities but by acting as a knowledge commons we can contribute to the creation of new efforts, and to the creation of a shared awareness on the commonality between various sectoral activities.<br>
<br><br><br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
2. �I believe that P2P politics can gain traction among existing local<br>
and regional groups already engaged in politics by creating more<br>
access to participation, effective modeling of participation (the<br>
"shadow government" systems used in Iceland and<br>
<a href="https://github.com/rbjarnason/open-active-democracy" target="_blank">https://github.com/rbjarnason/open-active-democracy</a> etc), access to<br>
information via P2P community resource planning ( a concept I'm<br>
helping to evolve with <a href="http://flywheeltechcollective.com" target="_blank">http://flywheeltechcollective.com</a> in<br>
Cleveland). Plus, transparency in the form of channels like<br>
<a href="http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch" target="_blank">http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch</a> and citizen<br>
news channels like <a href="http://lansingonlinenews.com/" target="_blank">http://lansingonlinenews.com/</a> and<br>
<a href="http://annarborchronicle.com/" target="_blank">http://annarborchronicle.com/</a><br></blockquote><div><br><br>very interesting, I have not really followed that aspect closely, but I hope you can contribute this kind of knowledge to the wiki section on politics, to increase common understanding of what is happening <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
3. Move "government" from the "halls of government" to voluntary<br>
co-governance where needed and desired. "Wait a minute" I hear<br>
millions of people saying, "I don't want government so close to my<br>
personal life". Ok, that's *exactly why* I said "voluntary<br>
co-governance where needed and desired". In order for our political<br>
systems to evolve government, some of it needs to move *out* of it's<br>
traditional established culture/place/tradition of a few<br>
representatives working on our behalf, and be accessible to be invoked<br>
by people anywhere and anytime they agree they need and want to<br>
(Henrik Ingo <a href="http://www.openlife.cc/blog" target="_blank">http://www.openlife.cc/blog</a> and �Tere Vad�n<br>
<a href="http://nuvatsia.terevaden.net/" target="_blank">http://nuvatsia.terevaden.net/</a> both discuss this<br>
<a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Life" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Life</a> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Wikiworld" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Wikiworld</a><br>
). Given the state of our world, I'd trust the majority of people to<br>
govern themselves directly on many things that they are currently<br>
forced to hand off to centralized representatives. That goes against<br>
the common culture that "people cannot be trusted to govern<br>
themselves". �We'll never know, since people have never had the access<br>
to truly do this! My partner in P2P Foundation Paul B. Hartzog has<br>
done some incredible work to come to the conclusion that we may be<br>
making a terrible mistake as a species by *not* trusting people to<br>
directly govern themselves:<br>
<a href="http://www.panarchy.com/Members/PaulBHartzog/Papers/" target="_blank">http://www.panarchy.com/Members/PaulBHartzog/Papers/</a><br></blockquote><div><br>yes, also an important part of what needs to be done<br>�<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
4. Finally, this all is directly related to �co-governed commons<br>
approaches to addressing basic problems of existence we discussed in<br>
<a href="http://forwardfound.org/blog/?q=five-commons" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org/blog/?q=five-commons</a> One of the largest<br>
obstacles to change I've run into in the industrial midwest is the<br>
attitudes people have towards understanding how important it is to<br>
pool and share useful and employable technological advances early and<br>
often in the areas of food, energy, and physical technology<br>
production. The attitude is of "who cares about all of those other<br>
people, this is for *me*" is pervasive, and is causing people to<br>
re-invent the same things over and over again, and needlessly burn<br>
through and waste already scarce resources. I think there is a way to<br>
prove that more "wealth" can be brought to the individual if they<br>
design for interoperability first *before* they make and do what is<br>
best for them, and if they share early and often over and above<br>
hoarding and isolating their efforts. *Pooling* a fraction of your<br>
resources with others can get you access to an exponential return on<br>
those resources. Hoarding all of your resources limits you to only<br>
what you have and tends to encourage others to do the same (the "tit<br>
for tat" game).<br></blockquote><div><br>yes you are right, this is a major obstacle, but minority groups are rapidly moving in different directions and shared pooling and collaborative consumption and many other activities are really growing quite rapidly in many fields, the new culture is being created as we speak<br>
�<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
None of this even discusses connections that could be made to people<br>
*already* producing f/l open source software, technologies, open<br>
education resources, etc etc plus traditional businesses, Unions,<br>
associations, etc etc. I've seen genuine interest in all of these<br>
quarters. P2P Foundation doesn't have to shoulder the burden of<br>
organizing all of that, but could *easily* be an intellectual base<br>
from which much of this grows by continuing to do what P2P Foundation<br>
does.<br></blockquote><div><br>Exactly Sam, I think this should be our more modest ambition, to be a knowledge commons from which both active and interested people can find knowledge and inspiration, and feel that their own concerns are part of a much larger social revolution and movement<br>
<br>michel <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
> �then<br>
> look for 'sympathetic politicians', either candidates (like smari mccarthy<br>
> in iceland or diego rivera in argentina) or already practicing<br>
><br>
> Parallel with that could be the creation of local political salons, where a<br>
> p2p political culture could be created ...<br>
><br>
> I'm afraid though that for the moment this is beyond me (and us?)<br>
><br>
> Right now, I'm focusing on policy work through the vehicle of the Commons<br>
> Strategies Group,<br>
><br>
> I would like to find people who can independently create a 'political wing'<br>
> of the p2p movement, who could be inspired by our work and that we could<br>
> support<br>
><br>
> Michel<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Michel, I really agree. As I said sometime last month, I hope that<br>
>> P2PF might become some form of political movement here in the<br>
>> industrial midwest that can be taken seriously (as opposed to<br>
>> progressive groups that are dismissed and marginalised, and<br>
>> neo-liberal politics that basically puts political activity in service<br>
>> of big corporations).<br>
>><br>
>> Transition movement is a great example. I've talked here locally and<br>
>> in Cleveland about the idea of a P2P political network (*not* "party")<br>
>> and there is definitely interest. The idea is that P2P politics is<br>
>> part of the whole of existence, not a division of human activity. We<br>
>> can decide together anywhere, at any time, to do anything within our<br>
>> abilities to do it. More transitionally and closer to existing<br>
>> bureaucracies, we can also start using tools and system like "shadow<br>
>> government" to start keeping track and feedback loops of what is<br>
>> happening.<br>
>><br>
>> Over in Wisconsin, Sheldon Rampton and Co.have also made some serious<br>
>> progress in coordinated social transparency with<br>
>> <a href="http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch" target="_blank">http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch</a> and nearer to<br>
>> home <a href="http://arborwiki.org" target="_blank">http://arborwiki.org</a> is an example of a way for people to engage<br>
>> based on the place that they are in. The global network that is P2PF<br>
>> is a missing component that I see that could aid in bridging the gaps<br>
>> in global/local organizing (realizing of course that there would be<br>
>> much work and building to be done to make that happen).<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> > hi Sam,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I agree, with the geo-local focus, but it is not enough, we also need<br>
>> > globa-local forms of popular organisation ... I think the transition<br>
>> > movement is exemplary in that regard, combining strong local focus with<br>
>> > a<br>
>> > global movement<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Michel<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 3:53 AM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org">dennis.hamilton@acm.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > I am fascinated by the current explorations concerning social media<br>
>> >> > and<br>
>> >> > how community formation and spontaneity are enabled. �I find a great<br>
>> >> > deal to<br>
>> >> > digest, and much thoughtful analysis in the recent threads.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Although it is not material to the clarification of weak and strong<br>
>> >> > ties<br>
>> >> > as a false dichotomy, this one passage brought me up short:<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > " ...what is destroying our opportunities for individuality and<br>
>> >> > creativity, subverting us from realizing our human potential is not<br>
>> >> > that we<br>
>> >> > are tweeting about trivialities, but that the governance of our<br>
>> >> > planet has<br>
>> >> > been taken away from us."<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > The hyperbole is appealing, but I wonder if there is something more<br>
>> >> > important here. �When, if ever, have "we" possessed the governance of<br>
>> >> > our<br>
>> >> > planet? �Indeed, what can it possibly mean to give ontological<br>
>> >> > standing to<br>
>> >> > the notion of planetary governance and suggest that it has ever<br>
>> >> > existed?<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > I ask this because is it perhaps more the case that we have before us<br>
>> >> > the opportunity to gain something, not that we ever lost it.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > �- Dennis<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I see you �point and it is a good one.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> There are some ways in which we lost at least some freedom over our<br>
>> >> environments over time as the industrial revolution emerged. I can<br>
>> >> think of the example of a farmer in Canada, who's ancestors came to<br>
>> >> Canada generations ago to seek freedom from tyranny in Europe, and who<br>
>> >> is now subject to legal system manipulations from companies like<br>
>> >> Monsanto that threaten to take away his livelihood and force him to<br>
>> >> buy and use products he never wanted to use in his operations (because<br>
>> >> their patented strains of corn contaminated his and Monsanto came out<br>
>> >> and discovered this)<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> For me, the meat of the article is the idea that weak ties and strong<br>
>> >> ties is the wrong dilemma to focus on. I think this is true. I think<br>
>> >> we need ties that are geo-physical local *and* "network" local (people<br>
>> >> around the world that have any degree of connection with you that you<br>
>> >> at least become aware of them). Fracturing and isolation weaken the<br>
>> >> value people can get out of all of their connections.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> > -----Original Message-----<br>
>> >> > From: <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a><br>
>> >> > [mailto:<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation-bounces@lists.ourproject.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
>> >> > Michel<br>
>> >> > Bauwens<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > <<a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/2011-February/000401.html" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/2011-February/000401.html</a>><br>
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 07:01<br>
>> >> > To: p2p-foundation<br>
>> >> > Subject: [P2P-F] weak vs strong ties as wrong dilemma<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > --<br>
>> >> > P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> �-<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> > P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> > <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> Sam Rose<br>
>> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
>> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552<br>
>> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451<br>
>> >> skype: samuelrose<br>
>> >> email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://futureforwardinstitute.org" target="_blank">http://futureforwardinstitute.org</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://hollymeadcapital.com" target="_blank">http://hollymeadcapital.com</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
>> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> >> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� -<br>
>> > <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
>> > <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>> > <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://www.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> > <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> --<br>
>> Sam Rose<br>
>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552<br>
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451<br>
>> skype: samuelrose<br>
>> email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://futureforwardinstitute.org" target="_blank">http://futureforwardinstitute.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://hollymeadcapital.com" target="_blank">http://hollymeadcapital.com</a><br>
>> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
>><br>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
><br>
> Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
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><br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
--<br>
Sam Rose<br>
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552<br>
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451<br>
skype: samuelrose<br>
email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
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<a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
<br>
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
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<br>Commons Strategies Group, <a href="http://www.commonsstrategies.org/">http://www.commonsstrategies.org/</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>