there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand<br><br>how can a self-invented coin have any value at all,<br><br>who determines that value?<br><br>what makes people accept that it has the value it says<br>
<br>which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for that value?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im">On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <<a href="mailto:sepp@lastrega.com">sepp@lastrega.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support its<br>
> use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from<br>
> official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is workable<br>
> for more than just local exchange).<br>
> To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site<br>
> cyclonite linked:<br>
> "How much is a Bitcoin worth?<br>
><br>
> More all the time...<br>
><br>
> As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...<br>
><br>
> The value of ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from US$0.06 to<br>
> US$0.50 ...within only about 4 weeks. Yes... That was an 833% increase<br>
> in it's value. Wow."<br>
> (<a href="http://www.bitcoinme.com/" target="_blank">http://www.bitcoinme.com/</a>)<br>
> For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable means<br>
> it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value excessively.<br>
> It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin<br>
> evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to a<br>
> marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.<br>
<br>
</div>bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think<br>
the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current<br>
group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.<br>
<br>
Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase<br>
seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I<br>
could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters<br>
jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the<br>
initial participants if various scenarios unfold.<br>
<br>
Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically<br>
inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants<br>
joins the system.<br>
<br>
One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control<br>
the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for<br>
anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to<br>
intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a<br>
good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more<br>
foresight into stability, health, etc<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target total<br>
> of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the number of<br>
> active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total target<br>
> amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at 21,000,000)<br>
> should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new users<br>
> for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly stable.<br>
> I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do this.<br>
> For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from<br>
> experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status.<br>
<br>
</div>Sepp, this is a great point.<br>
<br>
One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is<br>
ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the<br>
project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be<br>
implemented, etc.<br>
<br>
I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system<br>
at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could<br>
simply mean that participation has stabilized).<br>
<br>
Bit coin claims:<br>
<br>
"Once a predetermined number of coins have entered<br>
circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees<br>
and be completely inflation<br>
free."<br>
<br>
And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
> Kind regards<br>
> Sepp<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:<br>
><br>
> Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although<br>
> the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect<br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <<a href="mailto:cyclonite@safe-mail.net">cyclonite@safe-mail.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi Guys,<br>
><br>
> I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to<br>
> manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.<br>
><br>
> You can even sign up in a website as <a href="http://mybitcoin.com" target="_blank">mybitcoin.com</a> and start making or<br>
> receiving donations.<br>
><br>
> In my opinion the best available info for beginners is <a href="http://bitcoinme.com" target="_blank">http://bitcoinme.com</a>.<br>
> Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.<br>
><br>
> Best regards,<br>
><br>
> Cyclonite.<br>
><br>
> --<br>
><br>
> Secure Email contact: <a href="https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg" target="_blank">https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg</a><br>
><br>
> Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> -------- Original Message --------<br>
><br>
> From: Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
> To: james burke <<a href="mailto:lifesized@gmail.com">lifesized@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
> Cc: Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:cyclonite@safe-mail.net">cyclonite@safe-mail.net</a>,<br>
> p2p-foundation <<a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a>>, Sepp Hasslberger<br>
> <<a href="mailto:sepp@lastrega.com">sepp@lastrega.com</a>>, Georg Pleger <<a href="mailto:g.pleger@yahoo.de">g.pleger@yahoo.de</a>><br>
><br>
> Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation<br>
><br>
> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500<br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <<a href="mailto:lifesized@gmail.com">lifesized@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi Michel,<br>
><br>
> Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,<br>
><br>
> another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility<br>
><br>
> - most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it a<br>
><br>
> geek thing<br>
><br>
> I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes<br>
><br>
> care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some<br>
><br>
> people may not understand what is happening.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if<br>
><br>
> p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology<br>
><br>
> of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those<br>
><br>
> early adopters.<br>
><br>
> - the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to do,gah!<br>
><br>
> I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.<br>
><br>
> James<br>
><br>
><br>
> Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to<br>
><br>
> participate in any experiments with bitcoin<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> James,<br>
><br>
> do you have a public key?<br>
><br>
> Michel<br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's<br>
><br>
> public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then<br>
><br>
> send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and<br>
><br>
> sending it to you<br>
><br>
> quote:<br>
><br>
> "Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A<br>
><br>
> coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from<br>
><br>
> user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with<br>
><br>
> his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.<br>
><br>
> To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user<br>
><br>
> C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively<br>
><br>
> maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each<br>
><br>
> transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens<br>
><br>
> <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?<br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network<br>
><br>
> folks.<br>
><br>
> This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts<br>
><br>
> too.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens<br>
><br>
> <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dear,<br>
><br>
> thanks a lot for this email,<br>
><br>
> it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I<br>
><br>
> will<br>
><br>
> forward this to James Burke for possible implementation<br>
><br>
> James, I think we should do this, what do you think?<br>
><br>
> Michel<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <<a href="mailto:cyclonite@safe-mail.net">cyclonite@safe-mail.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
><br>
> Hash: SHA1<br>
><br>
> Dear friends,<br>
><br>
> I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for<br>
><br>
> making a<br>
><br>
> small donation.<br>
><br>
> As you probably know, Bitcoin (<a href="http://bitcoin.org" target="_blank">bitcoin.org</a>) is a new kind<br>
><br>
> of a<br>
><br>
> P2P<br>
><br>
> crypto-currency in which the general public can make donations,<br>
><br>
> macro<br>
><br>
> or<br>
><br>
> micropayments in a secure and anonymous way usually<br>
><br>
> without<br>
><br>
> any<br>
><br>
> transaction fee involved.<br>
><br>
> You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: <a href="https://mtgox.com" target="_blank">https://mtgox.com</a>) or<br>
><br>
> purchase<br>
><br>
> services or goods in an increasing number of sites.<br>
><br>
> In order to receive donations you only have to publish one<br>
><br>
> of<br>
><br>
> your<br>
><br>
> accounts as generated by the bitcoin client or any specialized<br>
><br>
> bitcoin<br>
><br>
> trader (eg: <a href="http://mybitcoin.com" target="_blank">mybitcoin.com</a>).<br>
><br>
> Currently some projects as <a href="http://www.i2p2.de" target="_blank">www.i2p2.de</a>,<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://www.torrentservers.net" target="_blank">www.torrentservers.net</a><br>
><br>
> and<br>
><br>
> organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.<br>
><br>
> In my opinion this kind of decentralized solution without the<br>
><br>
> need<br>
><br>
> to<br>
><br>
> trust any middlemen is much better than Paypal, Visa or<br>
><br>
> Mastercard<br>
><br>
> for<br>
><br>
> security-minded people as most of your donors are.<br>
><br>
> If you are interested in pushing Bitcoin forward, do not<br>
><br>
> hesitate<br>
><br>
> to<br>
><br>
> contact me if you have any doubt.<br>
><br>
> Yours,<br>
><br>
> Cyclonite<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div>--<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">--<br>
Sam Rose<br>
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation<br>
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552<br>
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451<br>
skype: samuelrose<br>
email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="http://forwardfound.org" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>
<a href="http://futureforwardinstitute.org" target="_blank">http://futureforwardinstitute.org</a><br>
<a href="http://hollymeadcapital.com" target="_blank">http://hollymeadcapital.com</a><br>
<a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
<a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>
<br>
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org</a><br>
<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
<br>Think tank: <a href="http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI">http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI</a><br><br><br><br><br>