[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

Mon Aug 15 10:52:24 CEST 2016

thanks Orsan, comments much appreciated,

Michel

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:49 AM, Orsan <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 14 aug. 2016, at 16:48, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> wrote:
>
> thanks for putting time in this ... (though I was asking for evidence of
> gulen support for jason bourne movies <g>)
>
>
> You are welcome Michel, though I didn't say Gulen funded Bourne movies,
> but associated with the interest of those forces, according to my
> interpretation (which is an interpretation) of it. There are of course
> internal and intra-contradictions between such forces and actors to be
> interpreted to. As of my knowledge best of such interpretations is Kees van
> der Pijl's third volume of on political economy and modes of foreign
> relations (2014). Full of empirical evidence backed and informed by string
> theory.
>
> I have a quite different interpretation of bourne ... the assange and the
> girl are portrayed sympathetically, the CIA is presented as entirely led by
> crooks at all levels, with a few ethical lone riders being fought by the
> system .. but I guess that's a matter of interpretation
>
>
> Sure..
>
> I retain from your arguments that you see there are two factions in the
> ruling class, including a more liberal one, which is entirely plausible,
> but that the evidence for the concrete links you assume have be researched,
> which is fine,
>
>
> Mainly two global fraction from west engages in systemic struggle, and
> between the hegemonic forces or block they lead and those forces from
> peripheral internationalist  and nationalist blocks there is a major
> transnational struggle going on. So more complex network of struggles; then
> we have labour and other counter forces, challenging these in an
> inter-class struggle. Identity, environmental, and other fields of struggle
> intersect and complicate the picture again.
>
> I think the overall strenghts of the arguments would be stronger without
> these leaps,
>
>
> I agree, and again it needs a deeper study, yet I believe such studies are
> exist. Just need reading, and specific adaptation to concrete situations;
> to make at least a bit better sense of the whole picture.
>
> Orsan
>
> Michel
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The hard evidence for such stuff can come from insiders. May be p2p
>> open intelligence guy (Robert Atllee?), or John Robb, or their contact
>> in special operation units, or intelligence could give better insight
>> about how these things work. In case you have time to go through, such
>> evidence is for long is made public by wikileaks. This is one single
>> example about Turkey and Gulen:
>> https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/37/379052_fw-ct-former-tu
>> rk-intel-guy-says-gulen-is-cia-front-in.html
>>
>> This is Graham Fuller, CIA regional desk director for middle east
>> -based in Turkey for long, on Gulen:
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/graham-e-fuller/gulen-movement
>> -not-cult_b_11116858.html
>>
>> To compare Gulen with the Moon cult:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon
>>
>> Also please google, or search wikileaks files on Gulen, Vatican, and
>> Moon relationships.
>>
>> But I think anyone can try to develop clearer and informed argument,
>> using scattered intelligence on rulers and their global operations.
>>
>> Which would takes a good article; in the end no one would read, or get
>> it, or don't want to get it :) as in Dmytri's article case, articles
>> can not change the world.
>>
>> As for the moment, I can remind and try to compile some of the
>> different posts and links I shared in various context, while they were
>> all inter-related to me. They were linking, in my mind, or mapping the
>> historical inter-related developments of military deception, special
>> operation units, organisational science, TNCs and supply chains,
>> complex systems management, behavioural social-mass-movement
>> management (as in Canvas - Otpor story), and finally today's big data
>> based Minerva projects as complementary operations to PRISM and
>> others.
>>
>> Gulen and Moon is extremely important, since they were 'left projects'
>> of radical democracy: known as long march through the institutions.
>> Rulers, get these left-'radical' reflections and implement them. In 30
>> years, Gulen occupied all high ranks at state institutions; starting
>> from armed forces, army and police, and jurisdiction and education.
>> Now they have been every where. The guys, both were related to Gladio,
>> and were prominent anti-communists; both become global liberal
>> religious 'movements'.
>>
>> May be historically 'liberal' activists, as you see them as part of
>> the 'left', as in the US mainstream media and commonsense, Gulen and
>> Moon are used for soft-religious movements in Islamic and eastern
>> christian worlds. unification Church of Moon, or 'Dialogue' between
>> Religions project of Gulen, have been part of surrounding China, and
>> Russia since the end of 90s. In a sense, the rock-star left-activism
>> of Bob Geldof, Bono, Angelina Jolie, John Cossack, or Matt Damon for
>> that matter, is very related to the liberalism of Moon and Gulen. Not
>> in terms of radical social system change at all, but liberally
>> conserving or managing the complexities of the change process; so that
>> any change would not dis-allow 'being' famous, or 'being' millioners
>> -in which to them there is nothing wrong; but exactly because of this
>> they fell on the 'right' today, instead of 'left'.
>>
>> I think Peter and you mean well, when you argue, for 'Dialogue', or
>> possibilities that are independent from what is being calculated,
>> choreographed, executed, or screened, as part of any ruling class
>> project or 'plots', as 'UBI' or 'Commmons', or 'Green New Economy',
>> neo-keinesianism so on; since nothing can be totally calculated there
>> can be positive and unexpected outcomes coming about. I think, no one
>> would disagree with this.
>>
>> Yet, both in your arguments one can not hear about the limitations and
>> structural strait-jackets designed and put on such unexpected
>> 'anomalies', or dangerous social complexities tried to be manged. I
>> would recommend you Pasquinelli's writings on 'systemic anomaly'
>> tracing algorithm as a supporting evidence about the size and scope of
>> the modern Panopticon; or clashes of Panopticons.  I think what is
>> thought as power of liberal democracy, in political-philosophical
>> sense, also reflects its biggest weakness. In relation to your
>> question Michel: 'how and why would CIA fund or back movies that
>> destroys its image?' this point is essential to grasp (not sure if you
>> watched any of the Bourne or Bond movies): any total or out-come
>> message sent by these movies is not serving to destruct the image of
>> the CIA, at all. In opposite it provide clearing for first 'liberal
>> democracy' in the US (as it remained at all), and then the truly
>> patriotic soul-elements within CIA that are constantly treated by
>> individual free riders, criminals, wrong doers; and blocked by them to
>> serve and save their country. This is not a destruction of the public
>> image of the CIA, opposite it is a part of deceptive image-cleaning
>> operation, imho.
>>
>> As, in the scene, where Bourne meets someone appears in a terrorist
>> outlook, even darker skin, but who clearly represent Assange, wants to
>> expose 'all misdoing and fucked up institutions of the system'; and
>> Bourne clearly accuse him by exploiting the informant girl -just
>> killed by criminals running the 'agency- and he says he is not on
>> 'their side'. Then there is the Google guy, whose owning the Deep
>> Dream, which got allowed by criminal aspects in CIA to be billioner,
>> and in returned asked to create 'Iron Hand' structure, to be able to
>> follow and record all private and public communication. Clearly film
>> represents the reality, as the CEO stands with CIA-gang, and good
>> guys, like the owner of Google, Bourne, and idealist potentially new
>> female candidate for directorship of the agency forms an alliance for
>> the future. There is no place to Assange, so he gets killed by Bourne
>> after he tries to get the files by killing him.
>>
>> At a time internal fighting between the almost equally forces of
>> liberal and conservative ruling class fractions, such in-fights derail
>> the legitimacy of the entire system. Then out of the widening cracks,
>> there emerges right wing and fascist alternatives, in the midst of
>> increasingly delegitimation of the parlimantair liberal democracy;
>> casued by the publication of the darkness of the rulers through their
>> countering accuasations via films, media services, news, public
>> debates so on so forth. This constitute the weakness of the
>> power-balance, that is perceived as 'liberal democracy' to masses.
>> When this balance is broken, to a level, and losing control becomes a
>> real threat for liberals (as for conservatives) then they call for
>> stronger but domesticated 'left' voices, public figures, religious
>> cults... so on. Again look at Fuller's and other CIA linked
>> intellectuals writings for regional or world politics. To me, Matt
>> Damon, Bono, and other left-activists are popularising figures what
>> Graham Fuller was wishing more (left movement in Turkey). I would
>> argue, this is not a call, this is a talk in operational terms, and
>> they make this call globally and in general.
>>
>> People like Fuller, knows that system without alternative is doomed to
>> collapse, and they want to create and manage the emergence of
>> left-alternatives. Weather p2p, commons, new economy,.. they want to
>> be in charge in the creation of The Next System.
>>
>> O.
>>
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>> in
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>
>
>
> --
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> http://commonstransition.org
>
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>
>


-- 
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