[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS

Tue Nov 3 03:18:51 CET 2015

I don't see how this is contradictory,

we don't have the power to implement this in the world, 'all at once' but
certain regions and countries can set the example ; there are also groups
working for a global BIG but I can't recall the name for now

At least while we wait for this,
http://p2pfoundation.net/International_Simultaneous_Policy_Organization

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:40 AM, fabian at fabiant.eu <fabian at fabiant.eu> wrote:

> Well, the problem is more that it is not very well thought out and coming
> out over 50 years after Jorn's *Situationists and Automation *I feel we
> should have something a bit more coherent. (I am sorry, I was just reading
> that this afternoon)
>
> If the idea is that this is universal, i.e. guaranteed to everyone
> regardless of their national documentation, immigration status etc. etc.
> well then it does have profound implications. But hey, I don't think that's
> what is being discussed - can anyone go to Brazil and get some of this
> B.I.G.?
>
> Anything else reinforces xenophobia as can be seen in the UK where
> anti-immigration sentiments have been whipped up by talk about benefit
> tourism.
>
> I don't understand how having B.I.G. in one country can take us much
> further than another debased form of socialism in one country?
>
> all the best
>
> Fabian
>
>
>
> On 02 November 2015 at 12:36 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> wrote:
>
> agreed,
>
> but I think there is one thing that proponents underestimate,
>
> as Polanyi showed, making labour into a commodity was really central for
> capitalism, and the basic income would profoundly undo that, in fact making
> labour into a commons,
>
> it is worth fighting for, but let's not imagine it will be easy as this is
> in fact a very radical proposal, which will overturn a lot of common logics
> .. for example, it is likely that intellectual jobs will be paid less,
> physical labor more, as no one will want to do them,
>
> Michel
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> I agree with you Michel, it is not necessary to the argument for basic
> income. But it enables us to see the *necessity* for the BI rather than
> seeing it as just a utopian dream. The lack of jobs, and the continued
> demand for people to be in work, makes no sense unless you see it in the
> background of developing automation which is replacing labour, and which is
> traditionally resisted by labour. It is this attitude which needs to open
> to seeing automation as serving our interests rather than being the enemy
> which deprives us of work.
>
> Anna
>
> On 2 Nov 2015, at 12:05, Michel Bauwens < michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> wrote:
>
> this hypothesis weakens the book in my opinion, it is not necessary to
> posit this to be for the basic income ...
>
> Michel
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Good question Ursula, and not one I can answer fully. It is the term the
> authors use on the book cover.
> They say:
> "FULL AUTOMATION
> With automation.......machines can increasingly produce all necessary
> goods and services, while also releasing humanity from the effort of
> producing them. For this reason, we argue that the tendencies towards
> automation and the replacement of human labour should be enthusiastically
> accelerated and targeted as a political project of the left. This is a
> project that takes an existing capitalist tendency and seeks to push it
> beyond the acceptable parameters of capitalist social relations." (P109)
>
> A vision of a post work society where people's time is free to use as they
> wish is the basis for this demand. If this becomes a project of the left,
> hopefully there is more possibility to influence and guide this tendency so
> that it serves all of humanity rather than just the few.
>
> Anna
>
> On 2 Nov 2015, at 10:00, Ursula Huws < ursulahuws at analyticaresearch.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> What do you mean by ‘full automation’? Ursula
>
>
>
> *From:* Anna Harris [mailto:anna at shsh.co.uk <anna at shsh.co.uk>]
> *Sent:* 02 November 2015 09:19
> *To:* networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org;
> p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org
> *Cc:* Ursula Huws <ursulahuws at analyticaresearch.co.uk>
> *Subject:* NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX
> WILLIAMS
>
>
>
> This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the
> demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a short
> term demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups come
> together with academics and supporters to design the future.
>
>
>
> Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly.
> But that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I wrote
> some time ago:
>
>
>
> BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need
> the economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In
> that sense it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary.
> The big advantages are that
> 1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system.
> 2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without
> much knowledge of the economy.
> 3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in
> stimulating economic activity. (Brazil)
> 4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden,
> Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously
> required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary.
> 5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything,
> as one of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change laws,
> but changes patterns of thought.'(p 641)
>
>
>
> The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14.
>
>
>
> https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/
>
>
>
> I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political
> spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list.
>
>
>
> Anna
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NetworkedLabour mailing list
> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>
>
>
>
> --
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> http://commonstransition.org
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>
>
>
>
> --
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> http://commonstransition.org
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
> _______________________________________________
> NetworkedLabour mailing list
> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>
>
>
>

-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20151103/b697764a/attachment-0001.htm 