[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] [commoning] [Commoning] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
Örsan Şenalp
orsan1234 at gmail.com
Tue Feb 17 13:22:59 CET 2015
Francine and Michel, you are right that my suggestion of BI (as UBI) for
all -no matter what- is incomplete and not a realistic idea. Unless it
is thought as money, and not combined with crypto currencies and
cooperative production and sharing, also in form of distributed public
service production and delivery by citizens p2p, radical decrease in the
working hours, and re-regulation of the tax systems. I do agree with
Michel here, and the need of realistic and real exit for labour out of
market, which we are about to get. I think social security as well as
other social and pubic services can be distributed and peer produced,
yet the tax for those services had to sieze.
Yet I think the perspective you suggest about the class comprimise and
its outcomes like welfare state, social security, acceptance of strong
union rights like collective bargaining and so on, that is interpreting
social security as taking labour out of market and allowing ILO to
declare that labour is not commodity is also incomplete and not
realistic. As Asbjorn and others showed. One can go further and argue
that the welfare state and class comprimise allow capital to hold the
labour by coopetation in under the market discipline; that is why all
along the 80s and 90s union movement got parallized from inside, and
didnt produce right move against neolibaralism, instead standed for it.
In this sense unions cadre bear direct responsibility for what has been
happening to workers at home and abroad, as well as in the rise of
extreme right, and war politics -very similar to the last century.
If left parties and unions, see this, accept responsibility, agree with
the tax reduction, and accept and encourage political programs that
foresee sharnig monetary and political power with the citizen,
grassroots movements, I see a great chance for social security and
welfare state commons as part of a possibly realistic transition
strategy, in practice. Like p2p education, it is possible to design and
run p2p insurance and helth services, for instance. On the education
side I am working with others on a concrete project, and just met
someone from Holland working on a distributed insurence platform, and he
thikns it is adoptable for healt and social security insurance.
Anyway, when you look at how allirgnment around AlterSummit, Transform,
Blockupy, Syriza and Podemos in relation to the above -so far, and how
the politically operates and the language used, I got so much
discouraged about the possiblility for the thrive of a genuine
collaborative, commons and p2p based realistic alliagnce and a vision of
alterntive that would give people sense of hope. Sadly what is playes is
the old power game, the one brouhgt humanity to this point by
reproducing the system when rulers failing to do so. What is needed is
the politics that really matches the ethos of solidarity, social and
generative.
I really wonder who, how, and why would give a European wide support to
upcoming ECB action, if it is not clearly backed by a such vision and
politics.. Sorry for saying so, hope anyone would hear and respond,
preferably in practice. I hope I would fail, and being very much wrong
on this one.
Orsan
Francine Mestrum schreef op 17-2-2015 om 04:05:
> Michel, Please do not forget that what social security did was precisely to take out labour from the market. That is why the ILO could state that ‘labour is not a commodity’. Collective bargaining and the power of trade unions are crucial for this. Obviously, many achievements have already been eroded by neoliberalism these past decades, but I think it would be foolish to just abandon that system.
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> Francine
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> Van: NetworkedLabour [mailto:networkedlabour-bounces at lists.contrast.org] Namens Michel Bauwens
> Verzonden: 16 February 2015 17:53
> Aan: Anna Harris
> CC: Vasilis Niaros; p2p-foundation; Eleftherios Kosmas; commoning at listen.jpberlin.de; networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org; George Papanikolaou
> Onderwerp: Re: [NetworkedLabour] [commoning] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
>
>
>
> Having labor as a dependent commodity is pretty crucial for class power and as Polanyi has shown, it was the very basis for making capitalism into a organic self-reproducing system .. taking labour out of the market would substantially weaken that class power, which is why I personally believe it is not a transitional proposal but a revolutionary one, and so I am rather in favour of other more 'realistic' proposals in a transitional scheme
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> the 'amount' of the BI is pretty crucial though, the right wishes it very low at subsistence level so as precisely not to disrupt the labor market and make society pay for this basic provision
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> Michel
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> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I am wondering how a basic income (BI) would change the basis of social power? I had thought that the reason it is espoused by the right is exactly because it is seen as not disrupting any power structures.
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> If both a guaranteed minimum income (GMI) and BI were really sufficient to have an acceptable living standard, and GMI was a voluntary option, as is BI, then the only difference I see is that GMI still requires means testing, a cut off point above which it would not apply. 'Means testing!' is a loaded phrase for income transparency. Why shouldn't all our incomes be transparent, as presumably they are in Sensorica?
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> Anna
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> On 16 Feb 2015, at 04:59, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
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> hi francine,
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> I have read your essay on the social commons, but cannot imagine anything concrete by it , so what exacly is a social commons for welfare and social security ..
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> the guaranteed minimum income will of course not change the basis of social power, as a basic income would do, it's entirely within the logic of the current system and leaves the capital-labour relation undisturbed ..
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> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Francine Mestrum <mestrum at skynet.be> wrote:
>
> Rights are universal, incomes cannot be. I am not in favour of a basic income, but of a guaranteed minimum income for people who cannot earn a living on the labour market. And I propose to re-think our social protection in terms of social commons.
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> Francine
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> Van: michelsub2004 at gmail.com [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com] Namens Michel Bauwens
> Verzonden: 16 February 2015 03:58
> Aan: Francine Mestrum
> CC: Anna Harris; Eleftherios Kosmas; Vasilis Niaros; p2p-foundation; Commoning; Vasilis Kostakis; George Papanikolaou; networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org; Commoning List
>
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> Onderwerp: Re: [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
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> interesting,
>
>
>
> you are proposing a basic income that is more basic for some than for others ?
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>
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> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 12:18 AM, Francine Mestrum <mestrum at skynet.be> wrote:
>
> I fully agree Michel, though we have to be careful with the concept of ‘universalism’. Our human rights are universal, they are for everyone and are indivisible. There can be no question about that. The real question is how you want to achieve/fulfil these rights and what task is given to public authorities. It is wrong to assume that in order to achieve equality we have to treat all people equally (cfr AK Sen). On the contrary, unequal people have to be treated unequally in order to make them equal. It is only one argument against giving all people a same amount of money (basic income) and thinking you then work for equality.
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> Francine
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>
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> Van: michelsub2004 at gmail.com [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com] Namens Michel Bauwens
> Verzonden: 13 February 2015 16:59
> Aan: Anna Harris
> CC: Francine Mestrum; Eleftherios Kosmas; Vasilis Niaros; p2p-foundation; Commoning; Vasilis Kostakis; George Papanikolaou; networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org; Commoning List
> Onderwerp: Re: [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
>
>
>
> though universal coverage may not seem fair, there is a strategic reason for it, which is why the labour movement fought for it: if everyone benefits, everyone also defends it; the danger is that it is seen as something for the poor and needy, thereby losing the political support of the middle classes,
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> abolishing the welfare state and only helping those that deserve it, is in fact the neoliberal agenda and argumentation today,
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> Michel
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> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Thank you Francine. We have long been supporters of UBI here locally, which is part of the Green Party's manifesto. An allowance which is not means tested, and therefore avoids the expensive structure required for means testing, plus the suspicious atmosphere generated by accusations of fraud, is appealing. But the fact that it is available to those with high incomes, who don't need it, doesn't seem fair.
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> I have not had time to read your proposals in detail, social commons certainly brings in other possibilities. Do you have a working group looking at this that I could join? I would like to hear Ursula Huws opinions of this too, since she has written on UBI.
>
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> Anna
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> On 13 Feb 2015, at 05:15, Francine Mestrum <mestrum at skynet.be> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Should a commons-oriented economy not be accompanied by a commons-oriented social policy? I have been working in the past years on a project of ‘social commons’, in between traditional social protection and basic income. I just finished a book on the topic, but that obviously is not available yet. In the meantime I send you a contribution for a conference in Spain some months ago.
>
> I would be happy if you could take a look at it and give me your comments.
>
> Thanks a lot in advance,
>
>
>
> Francine Mestrum
>
> Global Social Justice
>
> www.globalsocialjustice.eu
>
> Brussels
>
>
>
> Van: NetworkedLabour [mailto:networkedlabour-bounces at lists.contrast.org] Namens Vasilis Kostakis
> Verzonden: 12 February 2015 15:48
> Aan: Örsan Şenalp
> CC: Vasilis Niaros; networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org; tapas at lists.p2pfoundation.net; David Bollier; p2p-foundation; Roberto Verzola; Commoning; Eleftherios Kosmas; Wolfgang Hoeschele; George Papanikolaou; Commoning List; George Pór
> Onderwerp: Re: [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> With the chance of the Greek vice-president's statement, the RNS asked me to write a short article about the Syriza and the Commons. Based on some recent posts of mine at the P2Pf blog, the following text might be of interest:
>
> Syriza’s new plan for economic development: a Commons-oriented economy? : http://nurkseschool.tumblr.com/post/110811291631/syrizas-new-plan-for-economic-development-a
>
>
>
> By the way, this year the CommonsFest is taking place in Athens. See more: http://commonsfest.info/en/
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Vasilis
>
>
>
> On 12 February 2015 at 11:28, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are comrades in the EP, like Tommaso Fattori who can make the
> link best, in my opinon, between the commons and syriza. we could may
> be ask them?
> orsan
>
>
> On 12 February 2015 at 09:55, George Pór <george.por at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Roberto Verzola <rverzola at gn.apc.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps, the next intl conference on the commons should be held in
>>> Greece...
>>>
>> Maybe with a focus on fighting for and working with a Partner State, in
>> collaboration with our Greek and Spanish commoner friends and
>> commons-supporters in Syriza and Podemos...
>>
>> george
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 00:52:05 -0700
>>> "Wolfgang Hoeschele" <whoeschele at commonsabundance.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Friends,
>>>>
>>>> Very interesting discussion!
>>>>
>>>> I wonder is there opportunity (or need) to promote commons or p2p
>>>> concepts directly with the Greek government? How much are they in
>>>> touch with these movements in Greece and internationally? Can it be
>>>> useful to them if networking with us shows EU negotiators that 1)
>>>> there are proponents of a new approach around Europe and elsewhere
>>>> (i.e., Syriza is not alone in searching for new alternatives that
>>>> break the "grow like mad or die" alternative?), and 2) there are
>>>> actual models that can be implemented and there are people both
>>>> inside and outside Greece who can help make it possible?
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that there is very little time available for the Greek
>>>> negotiators to achieve a breakthrough and thereby allow space for new
>>>> approaches to flourish in Greece, or else to fail, leading to a
>>>> resumption of austerity policies (with, I fear, disastrous results
>>>> for Greek politics, because I have no idea to whom Greek voters would
>>>> then turn). So, if we can do something internationally to help in
>>>> this process, it might be very important to do so now. Since there
>>>> are Greek participants in this list, I would very much like to hear
>>>> from you what you think about this.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, personally this also interests me because as a teenager,
>>>> when my father was working in Athens, I lived there - so there is
>>>> that personal connection!
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Wolfgang
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: Re: [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely
>>>> endorses commons strategy before parliament
>>>> From: George Papanikolaou <georgepapani at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Wed, February 11, 2015 10:09 pm
>>>> To: Eleftherios Kosmas <elkosmas at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Vasilis Kostakis <kostakis.b at gmail.com>,
>>>> p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org, Commoning
>>>> <commoning at lists.commons-institut.org>,
>>>> "tapas at lists.p2pfoundation.net" <tapas at lists.p2pfoundation.net>,
>>>> Commoning List <commoning at lists.wissensallmende.de>
>>>>
>>>> Eleftherios thank you for the translation.
>>>> Knowing Greek politics and considering that Dragasakis is the nr 2
>>>> (not to say nr 1) in the Greek government, I think this is an
>>>> important statement. It shows profound thinking and his openness to
>>>> the commons ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Eleftherios Kosmas
>>>> <elkosmas at gmail.com> wrote: Sorry for my previous half finished
>>>> message.
>>>>
>>>> Hi guys. I checked the speech of Mr Dragasakis I will try to
>>>> translate some parts of it. Bear in mind that due to the cultural and
>>>> linguistic differences of the Greek language with English I might not
>>>> be able to convey it properly (I am not a trained translator)
>>>>
>>>> "Title: Speech during the government's policy statements"
>>>>
>>>> The most interesting part at least for my shelf as a member of a
>>>> commons based collective like hackerspace.gr and a strong supporter
>>>> of the commons personally and in public is the following.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to, conclude with the permission of the President, with
>>>> a general thought. Often in everyday life we all live events
>>>> happening that only hindsight their importance. We live, then, and
>>>> now a historic era, characterized not only by the crisis and the
>>>> collapse of obsolete models, but we live a crisis that eventually
>>>> spawned new models and new social organization models, as was done in
>>>> the past. In this sense, then, this is an opportunity to take up the
>>>> deficits of the past, to close this modernization deficit, but by
>>>> addressing the contemporary social problem of unemployment, social
>>>> security and social exclusion. This could establish a new paradigm in
>>>> Greece and other countries of southern Europe, combining advanced
>>>> forms of democracy, social self-motivation, social justice on a
>>>> strong foundation of common goods, a society-centric model, which
>>>> would give dignity and confidence in society hope to the people,
>>>> optimism in the new generation. Thus, Greece from being the
>>>> Guenna-pig of austerity and destruction could be the a ground of
>>>> pioneering ideas and policies, and the benefit would not be just for
>>>> us. The world would become a security goal in a region of insecurity
>>>> and "aged" Europe could re-discover through the symbiosis of
>>>> different development models inside. Let's not rush some say that
>>>> these are utopias, because there are utopias that are realistic. Are
>>>> those whose implementation depends not on supernatural powers, but by
>>>> the unity and collective action of ordinary people in Europe, in
>>>> Greece and worldwide. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greek speakers could find the original here.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dragasakis.gr/omiliesparembaseis.php?id=1041
>>>>
>>>> I hope this could help a bit on the conversation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:43 PM, Eleftherios Kosmas
>>>> <elkosmas at gmail.com> wrote: Hi guys. I checked the speech of Mr
>>>> Dragasakis I will try to translate some parts of it. Bear in mind
>>>> that due to the cultural and linguistic differences of the Greek
>>>> language with English I might not be able to convey it properly (I am
>>>> not a trained translator)
>>>>
>>>> "Title: Speech during the government's policy statements"
>>>>
>>>> The most interesting part at least for my shelf as a member of a
>>>> commons based collective like hackerspace.gr and a strong supporter
>>>> of the commons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:50 PM, P2P Foundation mailing list
>>>> <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org> wrote: understood Vasilis,
>>>>
>>>> but the big danger is that all the energy goes to crisis management,
>>>> and that the real transformative work is put on hold for when
>>>> conditions are right ..
>>>>
>>>> so the only way out is to work on both simultaneously, i.e. work on
>>>> the crisis while also setting in place the framework for this longer
>>>> term change,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Vasilis Kostakis
>>>> <kostakis.b at gmail.com> wrote: Michel,
>>>>
>>>> The passage you shared was written from memory and I cannot find
>>>> anywhere on the web (perhaps in video format) the explicit reference.
>>>> However, I think that my memory is good and more or less this was
>>>> what the vice-present said. Moreover, allow me to share George
>>>> Papanikolaou's reaction in relation to my message, in which he
>>>> highlights that Dragasakis's basic idea was that "the european south
>>>> can open the way to new productive relations". In addition to this,
>>>> George emphasizes that "the priority now is to stabilize the
>>>> situation and give us time for experimentation".
>>>>
>>>> Let's see...
>>>>
>>>> v.
>>>>
>>>> On 11 February 2015 at 17:30, Michel Bauwens
>>>> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote: This is very important news:
>>>>
>>>> perhaps George or Vasilis can find the explicit reference ?
>>>> especially in english ?
>>>>
>>>> see:
>>>>
>>>> " Dragasakis's (vice-president of the government) finale during his
>>>> speech in the parliament, where he explicitly referred to new
>>>> bottom-up, Commons-based productive models which will have a global
>>>> orientation and will fuel Greece's post-crisis sustainable
>>>> development."
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Vasilis Kostakis
>>>>
>>>> Senior Research Fellow
>>>> Ragnar Nurkse School of Innovation and Governance
>>>>
>>>> Research Director
>>>> P2P Lab: http://p2plab.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> http://elkosmas.gr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> http://elkosmas.gr
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Commoning mailing list
>>>> Commons-Institut e.V. Germany
>>>> Commoning at lists.commons-institut.org
>>>> https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Commoning mailing list
>>> Commons-Institut e.V. Germany
>>> Commoning at lists.commons-institut.org
>>> https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning
>>
>>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning
>>
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