[P2P-F] [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] Greek Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament

Mon Feb 16 05:59:41 CET 2015

hi francine,

I have read your essay on the social commons, but cannot imagine anything
concrete by it , so what exacly is a social commons for welfare and social
security ..

the guaranteed minimum income will of course not change the  basis of
social power, as a basic income would do, it's entirely within the logic of
the current system and leaves the capital-labour relation undisturbed ..

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Francine Mestrum <mestrum at skynet.be>
wrote:

> Rights are universal, incomes cannot be. I am not in favour of a basic
> income, but of a guaranteed minimum income for people who cannot earn a
> living on the labour market. And I propose to re-think our social
> protection in terms of social commons.
>
>
>
> Francine
>
>
>
> *Van:* michelsub2004 at gmail.com [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com] *Namens *Michel
> Bauwens
> *Verzonden:* 16 February 2015 03:58
> *Aan:* Francine Mestrum
> *CC:* Anna Harris; Eleftherios Kosmas; Vasilis Niaros; p2p-foundation;
> Commoning; Vasilis Kostakis; George Papanikolaou;
> networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org; Commoning List
>
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek
> Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
>
>
>
> interesting,
>
>
>
> you are proposing a basic income that is more basic for some than for
> others ?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 12:18 AM, Francine Mestrum <mestrum at skynet.be>
> wrote:
>
> I fully agree Michel, though we have to be careful with the concept of
> ‘universalism’. Our human rights are universal, they are for everyone and
> are indivisible. There can be no question about that. The real question is
> how you want to achieve/fulfil these rights and what task is given to
> public authorities. It is wrong to assume that in order to achieve equality
> we have to treat all people equally (cfr AK Sen). On the contrary, unequal
> people have to be treated unequally in order to make them equal. It is only
> one argument against giving all people a same amount of money (basic
> income) and thinking you then work for equality.
>
>
>
> Francine
>
>
>
> *Van:* michelsub2004 at gmail.com [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com] *Namens *Michel
> Bauwens
> *Verzonden:* 13 February 2015 16:59
> *Aan:* Anna Harris
> *CC:* Francine Mestrum; Eleftherios Kosmas; Vasilis Niaros;
> p2p-foundation; Commoning; Vasilis Kostakis; George Papanikolaou;
> networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org; Commoning List
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [commoning] [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [P2P-F] Greek
> Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
>
>
>
> though universal coverage may not seem fair, there is a strategic reason
> for it, which is why the labour movement fought for it: if everyone
> benefits, everyone also defends it; the danger is that it is seen as
> something for the poor and needy, thereby losing the political support of
> the middle classes,
>
>
>
> abolishing the welfare state and only helping those that deserve it, is in
> fact the neoliberal agenda and argumentation today,
>
>
>
> Michel
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Thank you Francine. We have long been supporters of UBI here locally,
> which is part of the Green Party's  manifesto. An allowance which is not
> means tested, and therefore avoids the expensive structure required for
> means testing, plus the suspicious atmosphere generated by accusations of
> fraud, is appealing. But the fact that it is available to those with high
> incomes, who don't need it, doesn't seem fair.
>
>
>
> I have not had time to read your proposals in detail, social commons
> certainly brings in other possibilities. Do you have a working group
> looking at this that I could join? I would like to hear Ursula Huws
> opinions of this too, since she has written on UBI.
>
>
>
> Anna
>
>
> On 13 Feb 2015, at 05:15, Francine Mestrum <mestrum at skynet.be> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Should a commons-oriented economy not be accompanied by a commons-oriented
> social policy? I have been working in the past years on a project of
> ‘social commons’, in between traditional social protection and basic
> income. I just finished a book on the topic, but that obviously is not
> available yet. In the meantime I send you a contribution for a conference
> in Spain some months ago.
>
> I would be happy if you could take a look at it and give me your comments.
>
> Thanks a lot in advance,
>
>
>
> Francine Mestrum
>
> Global Social Justice
>
> www.globalsocialjustice.eu
>
> Brussels
>
>
>
> *Van:* NetworkedLabour [mailto:networkedlabour-bounces at lists.contrast.org
> <networkedlabour-bounces at lists.contrast.org>] *Namens *Vasilis Kostakis
> *Verzonden:* 12 February 2015 15:48
> *Aan:* Örsan Şenalp
> *CC:* Vasilis Niaros; networkedlabour at lists.contrast.org;
> tapas at lists.p2pfoundation.net; David Bollier; p2p-foundation; Roberto
> Verzola; Commoning; Eleftherios Kosmas; Wolfgang Hoeschele; George
> Papanikolaou; Commoning List; George Pór
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [NetworkedLabour] [Commoning] [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek
> Vice-President explicitely endorses commons strategy before parliament
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> With the chance of the Greek vice-president's statement, the RNS asked me
> to write a short article about the Syriza and the Commons. Based on some
> recent posts of mine at the P2Pf blog, the following text might be of
> interest:
>
> Syriza’s new plan for economic development: a Commons-oriented economy? :
> http://nurkseschool.tumblr.com/post/110811291631/syrizas-new-plan-for-economic-development-a
>
>
>
> By the way, this year the CommonsFest is taking place in Athens. See more:
> http://commonsfest.info/en/
>
>
>
>  Best,
>
> Vasilis
>
>
>
> On 12 February 2015 at 11:28, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are comrades in the EP, like Tommaso Fattori who can make the
> link best, in my opinon, between the commons and syriza. we could may
> be ask them?
> orsan
>
>
> On 12 February 2015 at 09:55, George Pór <george.por at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Roberto Verzola <rverzola at gn.apc.org>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Perhaps, the next intl conference on the commons should be held in
> >> Greece...
> >>
> > Maybe with a focus on fighting for and working with a Partner State, in
> > collaboration with our Greek and Spanish commoner friends and
> > commons-supporters in Syriza and Podemos...
> >
> > george
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 00:52:05 -0700
> >> "Wolfgang Hoeschele" <whoeschele at commonsabundance.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Dear Friends,
> >> >
> >> > Very interesting discussion!
> >> >
> >> > I wonder is there opportunity (or need) to promote commons or p2p
> >> > concepts directly with the Greek government? How much are they in
> >> > touch with these movements in Greece and internationally? Can it be
> >> > useful to them if networking with us shows EU negotiators that 1)
> >> > there are proponents of a new approach around Europe and elsewhere
> >> > (i.e., Syriza is not alone in searching for new alternatives that
> >> > break the "grow like mad or die" alternative?), and 2) there are
> >> > actual models that can be implemented and there are people both
> >> > inside and outside Greece who can help make it possible?
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me that there is very little time available for the Greek
> >> > negotiators to achieve a breakthrough and thereby allow space for new
> >> > approaches to flourish in Greece, or else to fail, leading to a
> >> > resumption of austerity policies (with, I fear, disastrous results
> >> > for Greek politics, because I have no idea to whom Greek voters would
> >> > then turn). So, if we can do something internationally to help in
> >> > this process, it might be very important to do so now. Since there
> >> > are Greek participants in this list, I would very much like to hear
> >> > from you what you think about this.
> >> >
> >> > By the way, personally this also interests me because as a teenager,
> >> > when my father was working in Athens, I lived there - so there is
> >> > that personal connection!
> >> >
> >> > Best wishes,
> >> > Wolfgang
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -------- Original Message --------
> >> > Subject: Re: [commoning] [P2P-F] Greek Vice-President explicitely
> >> > endorses commons strategy before parliament
> >> > From: George Papanikolaou <georgepapani at gmail.com>
> >> > Date: Wed, February 11, 2015 10:09 pm
> >> > To: Eleftherios Kosmas <elkosmas at gmail.com>
> >> > Cc: Vasilis Kostakis <kostakis.b at gmail.com>,
> >> > p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org, Commoning
> >> > <commoning at lists.commons-institut.org>,
> >> > "tapas at lists.p2pfoundation.net" <tapas at lists.p2pfoundation.net>,
> >> > Commoning List <commoning at lists.wissensallmende.de>
> >> >
> >> > Eleftherios thank you for the translation.
> >> > Knowing Greek politics and considering that Dragasakis is the nr 2
> >> > (not to say nr 1) in the Greek government, I think this is an
> >> > important statement. It shows profound thinking and his openness to
> >> > the commons ideas.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards
> >> > George
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Eleftherios Kosmas
> >> > <elkosmas at gmail.com> wrote: Sorry for my previous half finished
> >> > message.
> >> >
> >> > Hi guys. I checked the speech of Mr Dragasakis I will try to
> >> > translate some parts of it. Bear in mind that due to the cultural and
> >> > linguistic differences of the Greek language with English I might not
> >> > be able to convey it properly (I am not a trained translator)
> >> >
> >> > "Title: Speech during the government's policy statements"
> >> >
> >> > The most interesting part at least for my shelf as a member of a
> >> > commons based collective like hackerspace.gr and a strong supporter
> >> > of the commons personally and in public is the following.
> >> >
> >> > I would like to, conclude with the permission of the President, with
> >> > a general thought. Often in everyday life we all live events
> >> > happening that only hindsight their importance. We live, then, and
> >> > now a historic era, characterized not only by the crisis and the
> >> > collapse of obsolete models, but we live a crisis that eventually
> >> > spawned new models and new social organization models, as was done in
> >> > the past. In this sense, then, this is an opportunity to take up the
> >> > deficits of the past, to close this modernization deficit, but by
> >> > addressing the contemporary social problem of unemployment, social
> >> > security and social exclusion. This could establish a new paradigm in
> >> > Greece and other countries of southern Europe, combining advanced
> >> > forms of democracy, social self-motivation, social justice on a
> >> > strong foundation of common goods, a society-centric model, which
> >> > would give dignity and confidence in society hope to the people,
> >> > optimism in the new generation. Thus, Greece from being the
> >> > Guenna-pig of austerity and destruction could be the a ground of
> >> > pioneering ideas and policies, and the benefit would not be just for
> >> > us. The world would become a security goal in a region of insecurity
> >> > and "aged" Europe could re-discover through the symbiosis of
> >> > different development models inside. Let's not rush some say that
> >> > these are utopias, because there are utopias that are realistic. Are
> >> > those whose implementation depends not on supernatural powers, but by
> >> > the unity and collective action of ordinary people in Europe, in
> >> > Greece and worldwide. Thank you.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Greek speakers could find the original here.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.dragasakis.gr/omiliesparembaseis.php?id=1041
> >> >
> >> > I hope this could help a bit on the conversation.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:43 PM, Eleftherios Kosmas
> >> > <elkosmas at gmail.com> wrote: Hi guys. I checked the speech of Mr
> >> > Dragasakis I will try to translate some parts of it. Bear in mind
> >> > that due to the cultural and linguistic differences of the Greek
> >> > language with English I might not be able to convey it properly (I am
> >> > not a trained translator)
> >> >
> >> > "Title: Speech during the government's policy statements"
> >> >
> >> > The most interesting part at least for my shelf as a member of a
> >> > commons based collective like hackerspace.gr and a strong supporter
> >> > of the commons.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:50 PM, P2P Foundation mailing list
> >> > <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org> wrote: understood Vasilis,
> >> >
> >> > but the big danger is that all the energy goes to crisis management,
> >> > and that the real transformative work is put on hold for when
> >> > conditions are right ..
> >> >
> >> > so the only way out is to work on both simultaneously, i.e. work on
> >> > the crisis while also setting in place the framework for this longer
> >> > term change,
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Vasilis Kostakis
> >> > <kostakis.b at gmail.com> wrote: Michel,
> >> >
> >> > The passage you shared was written from memory and I cannot find
> >> > anywhere on the web (perhaps in video format) the explicit reference.
> >> > However, I think that my memory is good and more or less this was
> >> > what the vice-present said. Moreover, allow me to share George
> >> > Papanikolaou's reaction in relation to my message, in which he
> >> > highlights that Dragasakis's basic idea was that "the european south
> >> > can open the way to new productive relations". In addition to this,
> >> > George emphasizes that "the priority now is to stabilize the
> >> > situation and give us time for experimentation".
> >> >
> >> > Let's see...
> >> >
> >> > v.
> >> >
> >> > On 11 February 2015 at 17:30, Michel Bauwens
> >> > <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote: This is very important news:
> >> >
> >> > perhaps George or Vasilis can find the explicit reference ?
> >> > especially in english ?
> >> >
> >> > see:
> >> >
> >> > " Dragasakis's (vice-president of the government) finale during his
> >> > speech in the parliament, where he explicitly referred to new
> >> > bottom-up, Commons-based productive models which will have a global
> >> > orientation and will fuel Greece's post-crisis sustainable
> >> > development."
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> >> > http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
> >> >
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Dr. Vasilis Kostakis
> >> >
> >> > Senior Research Fellow
> >> > Ragnar Nurkse School of Innovation and Governance
> >> >
> >> > Research Director
> >> > P2P Lab: http://p2plab.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> >> > http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
> >> >
> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >
> >> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >> >
> >> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> >> > http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> >> > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > http://elkosmas.gr
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > http://elkosmas.gr
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Commoning mailing list
> >> > Commons-Institut e.V. Germany
> >> > Commoning at lists.commons-institut.org
> >> > https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Commoning mailing list
> >> Commons-Institut e.V. Germany
> >> Commoning at lists.commons-institut.org
> >> https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning
> >
> >
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Commoning mailing list
> > Commoning at lists.wissensallmende.de
> > http://lists.wissensallmende.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dr. Vasilis Kostakis
>
> Senior Research Fellow
> Ragnar Nurkse School of Innovation and Governance
>
> Research Director
> P2P Lab: http://p2plab.org
>
> <The social commons-Valladolid (2).docx>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NetworkedLabour mailing list
> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Commoning mailing list
> Commons-Institut e.V. Germany
> Commoning at lists.commons-institut.org
> https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>
>
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>
>
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>

-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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