[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] partner state as platonian illusion
Orsan Senalp
orsan1234 at gmail.com
Tue Aug 11 20:57:16 CEST 2015
I think Western art of fighting needs to learn a lot for Estern ones like kung-fu or Ninjitsu, which has had deeper self defensive philosophy and transcendental attitude towards the given conflict. Specifically class war had to be rethought a fight for classless society and moves needs to be thought accordingly. Otherwise western concept of class war serves actually to reproduce the conflict benefiting warrior classes and asks for defeats as you suggest Michel.
Orsan
> On 11 Aug 2015, at 16:17, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>
> ok, thanks , understood, I agree this conflictuality is a prime mover of societal change,
>
> I'll try to introduce a weirder perspective,
>
> social movements come in many guises, some are very much motivated and oriented by this confrontation, others are more oriented towards the pragmatic task of finding solutions for their problems and constructing 'the new', not as a mobilization against, seen as class war, but as a mobilization 'for', seen as the construction of a new society ..
>
> the first perspective, I have often thought when I listened to autonomists, is a warrior perspective; the second perspective is more of a worker perspective (I'm donning the hat of the hindu caste theory here): i have often thought when listening to Negri for example, "they like to fight, but they don't seem to want to win", and they just seem to move from defeat to defeat
>
> I would say that the approach of the p2p foundation, which has sympathy for the first perspective, is essentially orientated towards the second ..
>
> these human types will always exist and the key is to recognize this diversity and to create linkages and complemetarities between them,
>
> think of how the organic growers of vermont, were essential for the feeding of the occupy square protesters, as an example of this conjunction between the two approaches
>
> however, I am convinced that in this historical conjuncture, a key orientation toward a new mode and relations of production, here and now, is more central and potent than a perspective that focuses on political power first; the politics must derive from the commons construction, not the other way around
>
> so not just an abstract enthusiasm for the common, in a metaphysical way, as in the books of negri and the french book le commun, but a real engagement with commons construction and the creation of livelihoods
>
> a social movement in this context is a movement which promotes , defends and makes possible the creation of commons in every nook and cranny of society
>
> (I am more of a brahmin myself <g>)
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 7:50 PM, Antonis Broumas <tallhatsfuneral at yahoo.gr> wrote:
>> There cannot be a shift in the co-relation of powers without elements of confrontation between the social movements and capital. And this confrontational co-relation will reflect through each one and all of the leftist bureaucrats holding power in all possible cases that the "partner state" will take place. What will be ultimately reflected will be the surge or withdrawal of the movements. A certain possibility of counter - reaction from top down might be possible and can be theoretically afforded, but it plays a secondary role. Therefore, in any categorization whatsoever you will always have the confrontational element there, regardless whether you want to smash, tame or erode the power of capital.
>>
>> Syriza and, also, Podemos are a new kind of European left, influenced by contemporary social movements and distancing themselves from the arteriosclerotic statist tradition of the European left. They attempt to represent the new. Comrades up to their leading circles come from the movements. But it needs many waves to start reversing the institutionalisation of neoliberalism. The syriza wave has been spent admiringly cheaply. I do not believe their mutation is reversible. Society has to turn its back to them and punish this type of mutation, not applaud. This will make them think twice. In any case, the failure of Syriza will boost the movements. This is something positive, coming after years of maturation in a westernised country. We may not achieve the impossible but we will definitely make some progress.
>>
>>
>>
>> Στις 3:08 μ.μ. Τρίτη, 11 Αυγούστου 2015, ο/η Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> έγραψε:
>>
>>
>> inline
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Antonis Broumas <tallhatsfuneral at yahoo.gr> wrote:
>> Two objections :
>>
>> In my conception of the state, the latter is an institution separated from society. Therefore, any kind of social power structure should not be equalised with the state, if it is embedded in society. In this sense, citizen militias or communal courts with wide participation cannot be considered state institutions. Yet, if they are to be considered as such [i.e. state institutions], I have no problem supporting such a "state".
>>
>> the ideal of the partner state is that situation, and as Vasilis probably explained, the origin of the idea lies in the role of the FLOSS Foundations and other for-benefit associations that are active in enabling peer production. These are to my mind, mostly democratic institutions (with great varieties) . The problem of course, is that we do not have such a state. and so the issue becomes, how do we deal with the existing state. I was just listening to a greek anarchist squatter movement leader (I think), who explained that they started with extreme hostility towards the state, but were generally defeated and now they seek agreements with both owners and state officials, and have been able to expand and maintain squats (not sure who it was, could only hear its voice, https://www.facebook.com/events/1710124239215992/?object_id=1710124239215992&event_action_source=48)
>>
>> The welfare state is of a twofold nature. It is a result of workers' struggles and, at the same time, a consolidation of state power over society and a cooptation of the dangerous social movements of the past by the power of capital. In retrospect, the welfare state has never functioned as a vehicle to overcome capitalism. Private or state property was not disputed. Workers' self management was actually never part of the project. It was a project to humanise capitalism and, noble as such, never exceeded this horizon. I would never say that a "partner state" to the commons would ever accede the welfare state. This argument has appeal for social democratic policy makers and might be useful for them to swallow the partner state and commons policies. But we are talking about something significantly different, a subversive project to empower society. And this empowerment will be at the cost of the social power of the capital - state complex. There will be no win - win situation here. We will be winning some stakes, if they will be losing those same stakes.
>>
>> agreed on the dual nature of the welfare state which incorporated the labour leadership in the bureaucratic state structures; yet the welfare state embedded great social progress, for example in the de-commodification of labour (pensions, social security mechanisms, unemployment support) . These can be commonified, but they can also be used as stepping stones. I wish our wiki was working as I could point you to the typology of anti-capitalist social struggle from erik olin wright (smashing capitalism, taming capitalism, escaping capitalism, eroding capitalism).
>>
>> Since I am sceptical of the first strategy, which I believe may be yours, I am much more oriented toward the latter and therefore don't see it as a win-lose game; i.e. I don't think every social advance can only be obtained through this strategy. My strategy would be to be systematically strenghten the capacities of post-capitalist commons production, until that time as the social balance of power allows for bigger shifts in political and social power. And there is a lot of interstitial work that can be done, as well as measures that do not necessarily be absolutely confrontational. For example, the german feed-in tariff has been absolutely essential in creating a renewable energy commons, and has been used to great effect by the community energy movement.
>>
>> P.S. Corporations that "embrace" commons projects do this to monetize upon user communities, outsource R&D, outpace / dislocate competitors and, in general, maximise profits. There is only one case where capital utilises intellectual commons in a way that differs from the logic of individual capitalists and addresses inherent contradictions. This is the case where corporations of the same sector form consortia, which administer commons at strategic resources, in order to avoid tragedies of the anticommons. This is interesting but again should not be considered as partnership but rather as contradiction to be exploited from our side.
>>
>>
>> yes, yet we have to admit that, perhaps because they are labour aristocracies, the free software commoners have found a mutual adaptation with these forces. Again, my alternative is to use the copyfair licensing to keep the value within the commons sphere itself, rather than allow it to leak out to the corporate sphere.
>>
>> Apart from these two objections, I fully agree with your points.
>>
>> As I come from the autonomous tradition, I have seen in practice the deadly impact for the movements, when we pretend to ignore the state. What we need is a leninist strategy vis a vis the state, but an anti-state Lenin who this time is on our side. This means that we should exploit any contradictions available within the state apparatus and experiment with ways of confronting with it. This has been actually done in practice by the movements all around the globe. I am afraid that the case with Syriza is completely lost, i.e. there will be no contradictions to exploit. Yet, at the municipal level we might stand better chances. The problem with the vast majority of the Greek left is that it comes from the stalinist tradition and is unable of processing tactics against postmodern decentralised capitalism that are non - state centred. I think that Italians are much more evolved in this, even if they currently lack electoral successes.
>>
>> do you also consider Syriza as descending from that stalinist left ? my impression was that they were substantially different and apart from the eurocommunists (fully social-democratized ex-stalinists), was drawn from different traditions
>>
>> of course, even with that difference, the leadership fully compromised with the neoliberal state and ended up on the right of social democracy,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> a.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Στις 2:05 μ.μ. Τρίτη, 11 Αυγούστου 2015, ο/η Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> έγραψε:
>>
>>
>> thank you Anna,
>>
>> my definition applies internally, i.e. a body that is capable to enforce the minimal agreed civilisational norms for a particular territory (say, forbidding executions, corporal punishments, wife beating, including towards those communities that believe this is acceptable)
>>
>> of course, by definition, a partner state would be fully democratic and participatory, but 'prefigurative partner state experiences' need not conform to an abstract ideal, just go into that direction
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 5:58 PM, <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>> I think there is a confusion here between the state ability to enforce rules internally, and the use of force to protect. As I understand Zapatistas, the collective institution does not interfere with local consensus, rules and norms are only agreed locally.
>>
>> I would prefer to see a definition that rests on recognition by the people that they are part of a state, rather than on the capacity of the state to enforce rules and norms.
>>
>> But really no need to get hung up on definitions. We can define as we want.
>>
>> The debate for Michel seems to be whether such a project/state could exist without the capacity to enforce norms and rules, internally. I think this is a really important discussion, whether there is a need for an overarching body to enforce norms and rules.
>>
>> So here is an example of a something 'done by purely free and contingent agreements between individuals and groups'. Existing in spite of the state from which they have to protect themselves by force. And there is no reason that such an autonomous state, if you want to call it that, based on conscious recognition, could not exist in other situations. Hard to imagine- yes, but not impossible.
>>
>> Whether there is a need for an overarching body in the transition phase, when traditional values are being challenged, may well differ from place to place according to the education, commitment and development of the citizens involved.
>>
>> Anna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 11 Aug 2015, at 11:16, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> here is a very broad possible definition of the state
>>>
>>> a collective institution in charge of a territory and population, that has the capacity to enforce rules and norms
>>>
>>> IS THAT TOO BROAD ?
>>>
>>> the important debate for me is with those that absolutely deny the need for such a body, and believe that everything can be done by purely free and contingent agreements between individuals and groups
>>>
>>> so how would this be applied to say chiapas and rojava
>>>
>>> both these regions are administered by very democratic local and regional councils, in my understanding,
>>>
>>> but they can only exist because there was a failed state, which allowed this self-organisation and regional armies to protect them
>>>
>>> would this be a partner state,
>>>
>>> to the degree that the local and regional councils , which for me are state forms, enable and empower autonomous citizenry and economic activities by the population; I believe this to be so, hence, I believe these quality as partner state institutions in my understanding
>>>
>>> but these are not typical circumstances, i.e. in which war has destroyed the capacity of the existing state to impose coercion,
>>>
>>> for a considerable period of time, this is hard to imagine in many other countries, including europe, both in terms of objective realities (non-failed states) and in terms of the will of the people (will to radically abolish existing state form)
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:38 AM, Orsan Senalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I think this is a gate to a nice exchange. Yet I think needs more deep discussion. Definiton and form of The state has a long historical background, also The role of The classes involves. As not every armed Group controlling territorry is a state, as paramiliter groups, Mafia, Jakuza, so on, nor Germany and Japan which were not allowed to have armies after The war didnt sieze to be state. There is money printing and taxing functions for modern capitalist Nation state in The definiton but of course here concept is a design for future, and it can be referring ideal from, as socialist and other forms envisaged for future. Also discussion on EU, if it is a state, or Global-transnational state discussion is relevant here. So it is valuable and fruıitful to think in this direction anyway. Looking forward to it!
>>> Orsan
>>>
>>>> On 10 Aug 2015, at 16:10, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.academia.edu/14169439/Commons_Movements_and_Progressive_Governments_as_Dual_Power_The_Potential_for_Social_Transformation_in_Europe
>>>>
>>>> Not sure if it was bob or peter asking me for a comment on the critique of the partner state proposal
>>>>
>>>> I can't copy paste the one paragraph here, but do a 'find' for Bauwens and the single paragraph will pop up
>>>>
>>>> I can't imagine he has thoroughly read about our concept,
>>>>
>>>> 1) he believes it is platonian: can't be further from the truth since the partner state is rooted in already really existing practice, i.e. those of the FLOSS Foundations
>>>>
>>>> 2) he calls rojava and chiapas non-state institutions, but this is for me problematic, both of them have armies that protect the carocoles (chiapas) and comunes (rojava); since the state has also been defined as a body of armed men existing separately from society, I believe myself these are new state forms, i.e. they exist separately from any contract between sovereign individuals or communities, and cover a whole territory; in other words, to the degree they permit the autonomous existence of the councils, they are actually the best possible example of a partner state; and if you add that at least rojava is centered our cooperative enterprise, they are very close to the model proposal by Vasilis and myself.
>>>>
>>>> 3) he believes states won't do anything responsible for their own undoing. In essence, this is correct, which is why the partner state is about radical transformation of the existing state form. Nevertheless, social democrats were historically responsible for a deep transformation of the western state, and neoliberalism actually an example of the state dismantling itself to a large degree. What I think is realistic today are prefigurative examples of partner state approaches , certainly at the local level, and given a change in the political balance of power, a transformation of the state form. Given the historical experience, which has shown multiple examples of this, to believe this is impossible flies in the face of historical reality.
>>>>
>>>> To achieve a partner state in the context of the current market state, seems to me illusory however,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>> social praxis apart from
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>
>
>
> --
> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
>
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
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