[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] partner state as platonian illusion

Tue Aug 11 12:16:50 CEST 2015

here is a very broad possible definition of the state

a collective institution in charge of a territory and population, that has
the capacity to enforce rules and norms

IS THAT TOO BROAD ?

the important debate for me is with those that absolutely deny the need for
such a body, and believe that everything can be done by purely free and
contingent agreements between individuals and groups

so how would this be applied to say chiapas and rojava

both these regions are administered by very democratic local and regional
councils, in my understanding,

but they can only exist because there was a failed state, which allowed
this self-organisation and regional armies to protect them

would this be a partner state,

to the degree that the local and regional councils , which for me are state
forms, enable and empower autonomous citizenry and economic activities by
the population; I believe this to be so, hence, I believe these quality as
partner state institutions in my understanding

but these are not typical circumstances, i.e. in which war has destroyed
the capacity of the existing state to impose coercion,

for a considerable period of time, this is hard to imagine in many other
countries, including europe, both in terms of objective realities
(non-failed states) and in terms of the will of the people (will to
radically abolish existing state form)

Michel

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:38 AM, Orsan Senalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think this is a gate to a nice exchange. Yet I think needs more deep
> discussion. Definiton and form of The state has a long historical
> background, also The role of The classes involves. As not every armed Group
> controlling territorry is a state, as paramiliter groups, Mafia, Jakuza, so
> on, nor Germany and Japan which were not allowed to have armies after The
> war didnt sieze to be state. There is money printing and taxing functions
> for modern capitalist Nation state in The definiton but of course here
> concept is a design for future, and it can be referring ideal from, as
> socialist and other forms envisaged for future. Also discussion on EU, if
> it is a state, or Global-transnational state discussion is relevant here.
> So it is valuable and fruıitful to think in this direction anyway. Looking
> forward to it!
> Orsan
>
> On 10 Aug 2015, at 16:10, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>
>
> https://www.academia.edu/14169439/Commons_Movements_and_Progressive_Governments_as_Dual_Power_The_Potential_for_Social_Transformation_in_Europe
>
> Not sure if it was bob or peter asking me for a comment on the critique of
> the partner state proposal
>
> I can't copy paste the one paragraph here, but do a 'find' for Bauwens and
> the single paragraph will pop up
>
> I can't imagine he has thoroughly read about our concept,
>
> 1) he believes it is platonian: can't be further from the truth since the
> partner state is rooted in already really existing practice, i.e. those of
> the FLOSS Foundations
>
> 2) he calls rojava and chiapas non-state institutions, but this is for me
> problematic, both of them have armies that protect the carocoles (chiapas)
> and comunes (rojava); since the state has also been defined as a body of
> armed men existing separately from society, I believe myself these are new
> state forms, i.e. they exist separately from any contract between sovereign
> individuals or communities, and cover a whole territory; in other words, to
> the degree they permit the autonomous existence of the councils, they are
> actually the best possible example of a partner state; and if you add that
> at least rojava is centered our cooperative enterprise, they are very close
> to the model proposal by Vasilis and myself.
>
> 3) he believes states won't do anything responsible for their own undoing.
> In essence, this is correct, which is why the partner state is about
> radical transformation of the existing state form. Nevertheless, social
> democrats were historically responsible for a deep transformation of the
> western state, and neoliberalism actually an example of the state
> dismantling itself to a large degree. What I think is realistic today are
> prefigurative examples of partner state approaches , certainly at the local
> level, and given a change in the political balance of power, a
> transformation of the state form. Given the historical experience, which
> has shown multiple examples of this, to believe this is impossible flies in
> the face of historical reality.
>
> To achieve a partner state in the context of the current market state,
> seems to me illusory however,
>
> Michel
> social praxis apart from
>
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>
>

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