[P2P-F] an evaluation of the flok

Sun Jul 6 23:43:53 CEST 2014

Hi Orsan

If I understand why you are saying, and i think that i do, i agree that putting all one's cards on the table could be helpful.  As far as cook consultancy goes i have received zero dollars - zero money of any sort from the 4 to 6 hundred hours of my time that i donated between september and the present.  I have published my last two newsletters on this project and given them away.

My cook report on internet protocol and the private mail list i run have been my sole source of income since march 1 of 1992.
Michel has had a courtesy (fee) membership in my private mail list since about 2006 or 7.  I did not really understand what he did until i met and interviewed him in Bangkok on the 2 of march of 2010.  before the year ended i published 2 separate cook reports  explaining what this very good and unique person did.  Until he fell into the metaphorical sewers of quito he has been a hero to me.  And when i read about the ecuador assignment, I fell for it totally.  It was the one HOPEFUL thing going on in the whole world as far as i was concerned.  And had i been in Michels shoe i likely would have done pretty much what he did.  although i would like to think that i would have been more transparent about the actual status of things and would have left in disgust long before the end. I suspect, but cannot at present prove, that vasquez  having the power of the checkbook used that power without mercy against Michel.  (Do as i say or no pay.)

From what i can tell and i am sure michel will correct me if i am wrong, the opportunity presented represented michel's fondest dream.  (mine too).  michel did hint early on like in october november that there were administrative problems.  But in was not until carlos got canned, on i think feb 22, that i received information as to how serious they were.

Given the best evidence i have now, when michel visited quito between about september 14 and 30 he met with Daniel Vasqueuz, very likely with Bethany Horne and andres delgado.  Carlos had budgetary authority  and would sign the checks but apparently Michel did not even meet carlos in person - the transaction was done by teleconference.  As far as I know xabier was in spain.  What Daniel told Michel about renee ramirez and the support from senescyt i don't know.  Carlos had been an advisor to ramirez but in the 4 or 5 months he had been rector at IAE he had stirred up a hornets nest of resentment as was documented n the quito press n late september.  also documented was that carlos had publicly accused jacques ramirez brother of renee of being a liar.

And gosh buy the end of the winter despite the fact that carlos had a 5 year presidential appointment renee had gotten the project defunded. Should anyone be surprised when the research team didn't get paid?

evidently daniel vasquez was damn near michels sole source of support and told him who to trust and who not to trust during the whole stay.  Apparently daniel had complete control over who got paid and who did not and proceeded to use that authority against michel without mercy. Daniel has gone quiet because while he assured michel that the president knew about the project as of early january 2014 in fact the president knew nothing about the project until a few days before the so called summit began.  Evidently Raphael Correa likes the FLOK project and Daniel may be hoping to get some real support for it.  

But the question  must be asked now that daniel and bernado have thoroughly TRASHED everyone who tried to help out with   it - what is left of the so called folk?  An empty husk - and i don't think correa would be so stupid as to support it.

I wish Michel had been more candid with me an d let me know for example that the flokisti were trashing me and my report as a product of the cia.  For all i know he may well have been under orders fem Daniel that if you want want o be paid and your plane ticket home you do as i tell you.

On Jul 6, 2014, at 3:27 PM, Orsan <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I just read Gordon's report, it was very useful, to have a better picture, though obviously and partly rightly there was a bias, yet he warns reader at the beginning, so justified. 
> 
> I will read the one Michel you wrote and posted on the p2p blog again, and will look for other reports from others involved like Daniel, Bernardo so on. It can be good to have all those on the p2p wiki for FLOK. Although it must have been very annoying under such stress so far away from home, all process bears invaluable practical lessons and insights to gain for the future, next to the concrete papers came out as a bonus. We should see it as the experiments done in the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. Seems to me under such time-space-finance-cultural and political context that generate massive pressure on the human particles collided, to get human conflicts and explosions like this... Yet as in the CERN experiments, one can even find the lost particles which can help us understand our universe better :) 
> 
> To avoid any negative impact for all the sides, I would humbly suggest, especially in terms of financial aspects, providing full transparency (Flok, P2P-F, Cook Consultancy, Ecuadorean ministries so on). And without practicing a sort of participatory budgeting, IMHO, there will always be shadows of doubts and questions hanging on these kinds of state-capital-funded projects. 
> 
> In terms of politics, and initial insights, Willi's below intervention, and Hellekein's opinions in Cook's report (on the FLOK context as well as in general about transition, and the need for real grassroots empowerment and networking are the key) what I feel personally closer to a common sense, which is also open to exchange and learn. And I am sure on one would deny these in principle. Yet there could be check and balance for networks themselves to see how much do they actually serve for such empowerment, and how much they do not. 
> 
> O.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 6 jul. 2014, at 18:53, willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Dear Michel,
>> 
>> many thanks for your general answer. I will also use it to a more 
>> general answer.
>> 
>> The answer to the question for our relation to the state construction, 
>> always based on the roman constitutional law, follows immediately from 
>> our perspectives. I think, therein, we agree.
>> 
>> After then, we check what is the state. And then we can decide.
>> 
>> Based on my personal principles:
>> 1) all people are equivalent. It follows
>>  a) all opeople have the equal rights
>>  b) all our working have the same values
>> 2) never we accept the private ownership of common resources
>> 3) all decisions about the way of life are taken local
>> 
>> Based on my principles of development as a result of the principles of 
>> the nature:
>> a) massivly decentral
>> b) massivly parallel
>> c) massivly redundant
>> 
>> Immediatly we come to the concept of the world society as a network of 
>> local independent community. The P2P environment of local communities. 
>> This, because we live always in local communities and we act as a part 
>> of this communities. The stability of our lifebase is a direct function 
>> of our local independent economy. And this rest always on our local 
>> technical infrastructures.
>> 
>> The destination for me is, that the people in the local communities can 
>> create and build most of that, what they need or what they think, that 
>> they need. Also this is a local decision.
>> 
>> Because we know, that many task for that are more general, we follow the 
>> old principle:
>> "global thinking, local doing".
>> 
>> This means, that all our theoretical work we do together in an open and 
>> free environment. Therefore, the communication system is so important. 
>> But in his inner structure we use our general and fundamental 
>> principles. The free access to the free communication for the free 
>> access to our free knowledge and information exchange.
>> 
>> Knowledge is always worldheritage. It is always a common resource.
>> 
>> Now to the state construction.
>> 
>> In general it is a system from the elites for the elites against the 
>> people, against the self-organisation of the local communities. In the 
>> political systems we have two poles:
>> a) the representative systems
>> b) the democratic, local self-decision systems
>> 
>> In the area of the representative system we have a big garden of 
>> different flowers. But in his core it is always the same. Incapacitation 
>> and centralization.
>> 
>> The elites need this to organize her parasitic existence. And, because 
>> it is not so easy, they need the violence apparatus and the bureaucratic 
>> instances. Always based on the incapacitation of the local people.
>> 
>> The private ownership of common resources is a necessary part of that. 
>> And to legitimate and stabilize this they need the control of the law 
>> system, based on the violence apparatus.
>> 
>> This is in short form my general view. And immediatly, we see, that 
>> never we can operate together with any state system that follows a way 
>> against our principles, agains the people.
>> 
>> States always are parasitic instances. They use but never they create or 
>> build. But in our perspective, we need the reduction of parasitic 
>> instances and change to a overall creative and productive activities. 
>> With that We can massively reduce the individual cost, the individual 
>> effort.
>> 
>> Om the blog of Robert Steele we find the sentence in the head:
>> "the truth at any cost lowers all other cost". Maybe, this is a more 
>> free interpretation from me. But this is the core for distribution of 
>> the activity for our life.
>> 
>> If all people are part of the basical activities in the areas for our 
>> material existence then all people have enough time to study the laws of 
>> the nature to extent the reduction of the efforts for our material 
>> life-basics.
>> 
>> Of course, we can first disolve all not necessary instances, the 
>> parasitic instances. May be, this is the most effective part on our way. 
>> Likeany military and all infrastructure for that.
>> 
>> In the communication system we can see it very clear. All this parasitic 
>> instances we don't need any more. All this stupid instances of "Internet 
>> Governance" are superfluos. And we can massivly reduce the volume of 
>> packet transports.
>> 
>> The same we will find in all spheres of our life.
>> 
>> many greetings, willi
>> now: Medellin, Colombia
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Am 05/07/2014 21:22, schrieb Michel Bauwens:
>>> Thanks for the first spate of reactions: orsan, willi, Kevin
>>> 
>>> First thing, yes Orsan, the hard politics of p2p transition in the existing
>>> context of capital-state-polity-policy-funding-culture.. that is the key
>>> issue we have to deal with, and I hope to add my own efforts to this, as
>>> soon as my homecoming fever is over ..
>>> 
>>> Willi and Kevin, you both pose the specific problem of the Partner State. I
>>> think there are really big misunderstandings if the relative failure of
>>> Ecuador is interpreted to mean that it means the failure of the Partner
>>> State.
>>> 
>>> The Ecuadorian state is not a partner state, it's a market state, though
>>> different from the neoliberal one. I interpret as a state that wants to
>>> rebalance the market state towards local sovereignity and the local
>>> bourgeoisie. It represented a different type of class alliance that wanted
>>> to strengthen the local state to tame international capital for its own
>>> ends. After a more radical phase after 2007, it is now slowly retreating
>>> and seeking a new accomodation with Empire. The results are a mixed bag of
>>> very strong social justice results, but a disempowering of civil society as
>>> a collective force. It is remarkable that after meeting more than 70
>>> different civic groups, I could not find a single one that supported the
>>> government, and even the ones that one did, are now alienated from it. The
>>> Ecuadorian state is technocratic, 'knows best' and dislikes participation.
>>> They dislike indepedent civic groups as much as, if not more, than
>>> neoliberal capital. So-called neosocialism is a statist approach to make
>>> Ecuador fit for a socially better kind of capitalism. It's mostly better
>>> than what existed before (though quite a few civic groups disagree and say
>>> they have less freedom now), but it's neither socialism nor p2p nor
>>> participatory.
>>> 
>>> The second important point is that while we can never idealize the state,
>>> the big and central question remains:
>>> 
>>> 1) is it possible to imagine a class society without a state ? My answer is
>>> no, as who would stop the homeless of going into empty houses, or elite
>>> paramilitaries to take away the land of the farmers ... While failed states
>>> are possible, they are generally worse. I am not aware of big migrations to
>>> Somalia, nor of colombian urban dwellers to the lands of the
>>> paramilitaries, but am only aware of the opposite. People able to vote with
>>> their feet, flee stateless regions
>>> 
>>> 2) is it possible to imagine abolishing class society by fiat. My answer is
>>> no. Therefore in any transition period, there will be a state to defend the
>>> mass of the people and their democracy against attempts at restoration.
>>> 
>>> Thus the state is simply unavoidable.
>>> 
>>> So the question becomes, what kind of state. My answer is the partner
>>> state, a state where the people themselves are the state, and the
>>> historical precedents are of course the greek polis and the free medieval
>>> city states described by the anarchist Kropotkin. If you agree, I don't
>>> care what other name you use for it, that is the partner state we are
>>> talking about, nothing else can be it.
>>> 
>>> The third question is: what do we do in the meantime. My answer is 1) build
>>> autonomous social organisation 2) engage with the state to fight bad
>>> legislation and promote good legislation 3) create prefigurative partner
>>> state policies where the people's forces have majorities.
>>> 
>>> So back the question: does the relative failure of flok prove anything
>>> about the failure of the partner state concept ? My answer is: the
>>> opposite. Ecuador shows that anything but a partner state approach is
>>> relatively doomed. It wasn't a partner state, we thought a prefigurative
>>> experiment was possible, and it wasn't. But micro-experiments, like in
>>> Sigchos, are still possible, and worth fighting for.
>>> 
>>> Michel
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> 
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> 

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 496 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Url : https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20140706/3e1a8648/attachment.pgp 