[P2P-F] about the role of p2p and the "big picture"

Fri Nov 15 21:02:59 CET 2013

wow, a wonderful set of questions, Ingrid (or Daniel?)

Sérgio Storch
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2013/11/15 Ingrid Herth <boon at metaversion.de>

>  about p2p and the big picture
> What i miss in all the sophisticated opinions on how to make the world
> better is the simple data about possibilitys.
> Food is massproduced in areas where its cheapest and then delivered
> globally to where its sold for best price,the products
> are made by brands that sell different tastes, how could a global commons
> oriented food managment do the job, and what would be the outcome? Is it
> really true that without massproduction and monocultures the diversity of
> available food would
> be lower then today, especially when production on demand can come in as
> well as ressource cost dependent distribution
> could like also work , even without money in a system thats values any
> social activity with benefit points that could be spend on luxary goods
> same as a surplus in money, and besides that food can also produced indoor
> at a cost of energy.
> How much energy could be available when global managment would enable
> optimized energy production like solar upwind energy or solar mirror power
> stations in the desert and sunny regions, wind in the windy regions and so
> on.
> What does the world really have and what is wasted in competition and
> miscalculation?What do we actually loose in the unefficency that comes from
> competition and low quality products that are only produced to be cheap and
> profitable, but never really do the job, for example all the bad tools for
> non proffesional crafting.I have thrown away so many tools that never
> really done a good job, or didnt last a very long time.If all the leaders,
> borders and companys would just dissapear, what would we be left with,
> there wouldnt be less ressources on earth, but what are the real demands of
> the individuals?
> I think a great problem is that we actually fear the needs of our peers,
> like humans have an endless stomach and an endless desire to consume and
> have status symbols rather then having a great time.
> Can we not by now technologically fight crime by monitoring the earths
> happenings, if we give up a bit privacy that usually is only needed by
> those who want to hide things, if we for that get a world where you dont
> need to hide things?
> Money or not, is it acceptable to gamble with food, housing and medical
> care, where just noone really wants to life with second best solutions.What
> is shared knowledge if theres no chance of ever practicing "how it should
> be done best"?
> Is there so much controversy of things that have proofen to function? Like
> why is it not possible to build area specific housing, for example
> hurricane safe houses in hurricane areas, the poor people build up there
> wood houses again and again, is there not plenty of ressources of all kinds
> to save if its done right from the very beginning? How much does that
> really depend on the availability (theoretically if money wasnt an option)
> of ressources that are potentially available?
> Or think about digital art, where you can produce many times faster with
> high cost solutions then by using freeware, what do we actually loose in
> potential creation by having competitions on the tools?
> Or computing time, the usa has super computers to spy and collect large
> amounts of data, what could these machines do for the organising of equal
> and fair living.
> And from the moral side there will always be Thomas paine for me and
> agraian justice, no matter how the world is organized, if theres nothing
> left for some while others own the land that actually IS ressource, do they
> not owe the others at least the basic supply for a living.
> And how much work would really have do be done for the commons to actually
> have an amazing standart for everyone, what actually has a commons or p2p
> based production to offer against the american dream that with unlimited
> money you have access to unlimited goods, when in reality any stomach can
> only be filled so and so much.
> For those like Orsan, that to me actually made the bridge between p2p
> theory and global revolution, i wish those data to be around, giving
> arguments on why and how other forms of organisation are more beneficial,
> and that not only for the poor, because even rich people have to breath the
> same polluted air.
> Can we acually abandon private transportation and fancy cars if there is
> no need to hurry to a job that we only do for money, and how good could
> organized commons owned transportation be, would it really make us less
> mobile with all the possibilitys that technically exsist?
> Or is it just a fact that we want to create our own individual things no
> matter how unefficent they are, and that we handle out freedom by handling
> out the right to limit what can be done to groups of people that are
> actually effected by these acts.
> Is incompatibility a right or a failure of innovation, especially when it
> harms others, or wastes ressource?
> How would p2p and commons change things when it would be able to replace
> todays organizing forms on a large or global scale...
> In reality i really wonder what impact michel might have for equador, but
> on the other hand, with global hirachys, food and production in the hands
> of a tiny number of large cooperations, the contact surface is very small,
> the number of enemys, like the 1%....is limited.But i really think people
> fear that there is not much to gain individually, and fear their peers
> hunger.
> I really miss visions that are based on the big picture of possibilitys
> that exsist, i miss the chance to get overviews of whats really going on,i
> miss backed up complain of what we loose, like what do we take away from
> our children when they explore the internet for music, and they are not
> free to listen to everything and mix everything, because music is a
> buissness, not able to read and learn everything because knowledge and art
> are buissnesses, how many artists in all kinds we loose when they never
> make it to be an artists because they have to work for a living in
> competition to all the others, selling insurances or building cheap
> products or doing other second third best things to earn money.
> What would be obsolete and what could be done with the saved ressource in
> reality, by real numbers and facts, the promise of a real change, and as
> obama won with just the word change and nothing to offer behind it, does
> the mayority not want "changes"? I wish i would have had more data on many
> things when is was studying all the sophisticated thoughts over the last
> couple of years i was into p2p, since i saw michel talking about the
> transition of society from servant to peer, things to spread and actually
> impeach the system, especially when i feel the same spirit in so many
> groups from nature protection activists to anonymous hackers.
> Transparency and data processing, what is really going on, is it
> technologycally still impossible to gather and map out how the world
> functions?-i still cant believe it is, and if it isnt, who and what is in
> the way of gaining arguments that things can acually made better for the
> whole earth?
> How much energy is wasted when people again and again become activists,
> create groups , work on ideas seperated and without any impact force on the
> real organisation of things, how many people really identify with the
> abstract group they are into their nation, their country, that they never
> even have the time to fully explore, what do they have in common with the
> groups they are forced into by birth....tho of course there are natural
> borders like islands, still coca-cola can cross all that bridges and serve
> the same taste globally, so global acting is no weird utopian idea isnt it?
> To accuse the 1% to be wrong, it needs arguments and facts to proof that
> they do not do a good job, not provide us with the best possible, not are
> the only and ultimate solution of how to offer us the tools to build our
> exsistance, but instead waste the worlds resources and create a system that
> leaves not much to do but rip of others to gain enough money, because small
> businesses cant be as cost efficent...of course there are small
> buissnesses, but how effcient are they usually how independent are they ,
> how many actually serve indirectly big companys when they work with their
> products, like farmers having no real option then buy pesticides and crops
> from like monsanto because traditional farming is not competitive.
> There are things that stand out, individuals that stand against doing
> wrong, but they are a minority, and afterall, in world happenings they only
> occupy a small percentage dont they? Sure they give good examples, but they
> never really effect the big picture of things happening, and they can not
> easily be taken by others to make a different kind of living, even if they
> share their knowledge on how they did it.
> Is global revolution absurd when there is global internet? How can be
> shown what would be possible without knowing whats going on and being able
> to share these informations, how can anger be seeded among those that
> worked their status in the system without having a promise of success, and
> how people would handle their effords are obsolete, when they are
> confronted with the best solutions as only option?
> Im trying to crossbridge some things, so be gentle and try to understand
> intention and things between the lines in what i want to say....i claim
> that more then half of the things people actually do are second best and
> obsolete under the recognition of facts and open knowledge, that people
> invent crappy things they would never try if they would face topics and
> issues centralized in global knowledge groups, and devided in local acting
> groups, like p2p would obviously function for me when it would be the
> system to decide and act upon earth.
> Well i still dream a lot about such, seperated without being able to make
> contacts or contribute to a better world, and it makes me really sad i see
> so much suffering of nature and humans, and i just have to leave a tiny
> footprint and write something from time to time...i hope it makes sense to
> you and doesnt waste your time for being unspecific,and if you get the
> point about what i mean and find it vaild, please comment on the large
> scale promises p2p has to offer globaly, step away from real world acting
> just for a second and share your dreams and fears again just like michel
> did when he compared transition to p2p with the fall of roman empire,
> something i will never forget. I really miss those kinds of big thoughts,
> someone who dares to challenge more then just an aspect of a market, or the
> organistation of a small group, but the system itself in all its (false?)
> complexity...maybe you orsan...how can you crossbridge anonymous and occupy
> with the actual stuff featured on p2pf and life with the noncollaborative
> state of all the seperated activism lacking one vision of large scale
> changes that make the world better if a revolution would ever happen, that
> even tho very theoreticaly is provided by p2p theory as a whole, do you not
> lack visions of p2p as a concept to rule a united world...and how you keep
> faith that a united world is wanted by the different cultural groups or
> groups devided by natural borders, if they really exsist, or do you think
> that the different kinds of living consist on seperation and lack of global
> shared knowledge and ressource and collaboration only, like i do...do you
> think theres agreeable standarts that fit to people everywhere like i do?Do
> you after all this years think that a peer gives up or gains possibilitys
> in an equal fair and sustainable system that of course has laws that limit
> things you can do, as you never can gain as much power as an individuum in
> a group then in the world we have now where unlimited money means unlimited
> power, a thing that even reputation based impact in leading groups does not
> equal....
> I really like the intention based idea of wellbeing as a goal to achieve
> that was mentioned in the stuff about equador, i hope it will be successful
> as can be and michel has a nice impact on that, oops i repeat myself...but
> anyways wouldnt even that be kinda partially obsolete if a world revolution
> could take place...i wonder what you people think how far we are from
> that...and why, theres so much more i would like to read about what
> promises p2p has to offer in a large scale, maybe theres enough open
> knowledge available to make equador a leading example of a culture of
> wellbeing and equality...with or without money, a basic free income or
> whatever.
> Maybe its just me but im kinda confused with the many "good" ideas that
> get presented and never claim to be the best possible solution as they
> always have to connect to the state of being, and working under the current
> circumstances, like alternative currencys...at the end if there is one
> world sooner or later...there can be only one ...or is that thought to
> simple, basic system, but of course a diversity of ways to apply it to
> local circumstances, though i dont get why there shouldnt be exchange
> without trading, or trading without money or ressource distribution where
> its needed...or a state where all is great and just needs maintance...its
> said that people who have great possibilitys for themselves reproduce less
> or will population growth be an issue in a better world (i dont think so).
> So much for my fastwritten 5 cent again after a longer time of personal
> issues, all the best to all of you
> Daniel"theBoon"...professional daydreamer.
>
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