[P2P-F] [commoning] The Co-operative University

[anna at shsh.co.uk]

John writes: There is nothing inherently wrong in paying someone for  a service they provide to you.

There are several reasons why you might think of paying someone for a service they provide to you.
1. You might feel you had more control over the terms of the service if you pay them, as in the example John gave.
2. It might make people more willing to perform a service which they might feel is unpleasant or otherwise unattractive, as in many mundane and boring jobs which are performed through 'slave  labour', or 'wage slavery'. (This is akin in my view to enticing concentration camp inmates to the gas chambers by giving them a soap and towel)
3. It may be a cultural substitute for gratitude, as when you tip a porter.
4. Paying someone also appeals to our sense of fairness, that people should be rewarded for their efforts. Indeed under capitalism, only as a result of their efforts, 'to each  according to how hard s/he works'. 

These power relationships do not become equalised through the exchange of money. In fact the reverse. They are defined through money. Paying someone for a service is not wrong in itself, but it reveals a power/class relationship which distorts a 'real' relationship between people.

These values have been absorbed by us without consciously questioning them, they are inherent in our daily relationships. They need to be questioned because they are leading to ever increasing disparities between the haves and the havenots. They suppress the real caring that exists when the human family and it's place in the biosphere is recognised and acknowledged.

Two writers on this subject: 
Charles Eisenstein - Sacred Economics, http://charleseisenstein.net/books/sacred-economics/

Jeremy Rifkin - Third Industrial Revolution,  http://thethirdindustrialrevolution.com

Anna



Sent from my iPad

> On 17 Dec 2013, at 01:27, Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Regarding a cooperative university approach.
> I notice there are several , potentially overlapping approaches.
> 
> I wish to bring forward the potential of a "learners cooperative" point of perspective , as a cultural trend to adapt to de-monetization , support forms of social and environmental regeneration, enable alternatives not as dependent ( and yet potentially overlapping ) of the mainstream narratives.
> 
> I do sense that this is ideological. Supporting the commons in itself is imho ideological.
> 
> If interested, here goes - it is a bit long ... 
> 
> 
> /////
> 
> I understand Sam and others focused on these topics - but still tried/try to make a monetized business out of it ?
> And I guess it is legitimate, especially if one needs to limit the risks one can take ( for example, in regards to family, if there is dependency on mortgage, loans, etc )
> 
> Yet - I want to bring forward the following :
> 
> Can we do it ... without money, at all ?  Or... by reducing dependency to money to the minimum ? ... and by doing so, make such approaches scalable, not only online, but as potential interfaces for the creation and spreading of emergent viable systems, accessible to any form of intelligence across the globe ?
> 
> I am aware some of us may get burned out, especially if isolated or marginalized by working on such research.
> Finding ways to engage people, when most people seem to be stuck in hopes or needs to get something out of a rat race narrative, is not easy.
> Perhaps for some, a cooperative university may be an intermediary approach, which would enable them to more easily support certain forms of commons.
> 
> Yet for those who have for some reason dropped out of such capitalist rat race ( deliberately or not ) , or who still have a foot in it but may already have secured themselves,
> 
> starting with shared engagement, interacting with each other, living together, may be a starting point ? Including young or older who want to create a shared experience together, using learning as a vector for convergence and engagement ?  Potentially leading to further incubation of modules for systemic alternatives.   Tribes converging, even for short term events or festivals, yet experiencing a more festivalism paradigm , as opposed to a society of the spectacle ?
> 
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Festivalism
> 
> ///
> 
> I'll allow myself to re-contextualize :
> 
> I like how the video shared by Joe  talks about "intersections"... 
> I do feel it brings up many of the topics , including "degrees and certifications".
> 
> My take and personal experience in relation to "learning"
> is that it does not depend on teaching, and even less so on universities, or credentials.
> 
> My take is that credentials are a poor and limited motivation for learning, although it may be one of the possible intersections.
> 
> As for the subject of this thread, 
> the topic of a Co-operative University, 
> it can imho certainly be beneficial for those who are dependent on the academic business 
> for making a monetary living, and I wish them well in their approach !
> 
> It may become more like a "producers cooperative" - university staff being the producers ?
> 
> Similarly, one could imagine a "consumers cooperative" in relation to universities ( students as consumers ? )
> 
> What is produced and consumed ? 
> What is being monetized ?
> Does it need to be monetized ?
> 
> Is is it all about a credential economy ?
> 
> I notice articles such as
> http://www.educause.edu/ero/article/credentialing-economy-transformed-and-its-beneficiaries 
> 
> 
> What paradigm(s) are we in, and how do we negotiate priorities in terms of learning ? ( and in producing new knowledge / research )
> 
> Can we really separate "production" and "consumption" when it comes to learning ?   
> 
> And since we are sharing this on commoning and p2pfoundation lists,
> what happens when everyone becomes a producer and a consumer,
> and when we generate a commons for each other.
> 
> What happens when we "de-monetize" ... ?
> That is, not even alter-monetize - but "no money".
> 
> What happens when there is no more chain of command,
> when one does not make oneself dependent on the conditions of a monetary monopoly 
> 
> ( and ( imho ) its top down crafted prioritization of objectives and the specific markets it decides to create via artificial scarcity , and tribute to such hierarchy of artificial scarcity ? )
> 
> What happens when credentials are not being sold as being needed to survive or have a say in this society ?
> 
> When we generate communities based on principles of " equipotentiality "
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Equipotentiality
> 
> 
> When we can collectively shift our inter-dependencies to a communal shareholding relational dynamic ?
> 
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Model_Typology_-_Fiske
> 
> ///
> 
> 
> I do feel that Open Learning approaches do tend towards this...
> 
> In effect, what would universities ( still ) be selling ? 
> An experience ? A framework ? Credentials ?
> 
> What if we can develop alternatives to each of these , with credentials melting more broadly into a reputation economy, and more directly related to records of experience from peers rather then approval by authority.
> 
> Is it reasonable to imagine "academia" shifting to a "learners based cooperative", generating their own ( potentially self organizing ) shared learning and experience environments ?
> 
> Some schools now focus on the experience of "flip teaching" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_teaching )
> I can easily imagine further stages, which are already experimented with in certain learning environments, including support between the learners to guide each other, or between different generations. 
> ( for example : the Ted talks promoted "Hole in the Wall / Minimally Invasive Learning / Learning through Teaching" or "Once Upon a School" )
> 
> If the current status quo , in increasingly neoliberal capitalist societies at least, is being maintained, imho it is very likely that money will not be made accessible to an increasing part of the population.  Actually, it is already the case, from my point of perspective.  
> 
> Learning imho is fundamental in our ( emergent ) empowerment.
> imho,  we need resilient tools, approaches, environments , infrastructures that can face and thrive despite , and with demonetization, still enabling us to co-create the solutions we need to facilitate our survival.
> 
> 
> What if the work / practices experimented with by many of us on this list already opens up such potentials,
> leading the internet / social media to be used to re-create, even temporarily, shared learning environments,
> including "real social" learning environments including elements of face to face relationship building ? 
> 
> What if we can adopt various approaches, including community participatory research, and forms of blended learning,
> to support such environments ?
> 
> What if... we are already in the process of doing this ? :)
> 
> I'll re-paste this link http://emergentbydesign.com/2012/01/08/93-superhero-schools-collaboratories-incubators-accelerators-hubs-for-social-tech-innovation/  
> 
> I see this emerging as a cultural trend... likely still limited within certain subcultures, yet growing,
> with subcultures converging with each other, including through what today seems to be called "the sharing economy", converging with "(Social ) Incubator" narratives.
> 
> for example, temporary or longer term co-living spaces or networks such as
> http://www.sandboxhouse.us/
> https://embassynetwork.com/
> 
> From such emerging cultures, themselves recycling and remixing various subcultures,
> 
> I notice tribes converging, and the living place becoming a learning and production place, all in one... 
> These places can even be temporary, or nomadic,
> providing we can reduce the threshold for certain forms of ( nomadic ) infrastructures, or relay bases for such networks.
> 
> http://nomadbase.org/
> 
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/19g_XYezo_jHEZINUqZNZUswZaLsuNHpvbsT3vNkW3eU/edit#slide=id.p
> 
> I appreciate the idea of spimed shelter, Eric Hunting's use of "Furnitecture" ( for recreating spaces in any indoor space, or outdoors ), and the potential to combine it with function , in a parametric and modular approach,
> and in combination with the Internet of Things - as Spimes that can easily be assembled and dis-assembled by anyone, aided by mobile information technologies.
> 
> Using potentials for Semantic Technologies, in such kind of ways
> http://docs.google.com/presentation/d/156YzIeH-eoYFl9nMzFxofQ55KVoksqusS0pYYL4WVaA/edit
> ( note : various projects work on this , but need more support, including UX / designers , ... - and existing code, for example from this particular research project, needs to be cleaned or re-worked https://github.com/automenta/netentionjs2 )
> 
> Can we use such contextualizations to create shared engagement, and community ?
> 
> What limited resources could we bring in, as some form of "Learner's Cooperative" ?
> 
> 
> note : the two lists this is being shared with
> 
> https://listen.jpberlin.de/mailman/listinfo/commoning
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Joe Corneli <holtzermann17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Part of the way through this video,
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ91Kj-4q2o Anya Kamenetz says that
>> "people need to get paid".  I agree that this is typically true - but
>> the problem I have with the discussion is that it becomes "either/or".
>>  Either you're in academia, or not; either you're getting paid, or
>> not.
>> 
>> Well, in fact, I personally get paid (in academia) for work that's
>> related to what I do as a non-academic or para-academic volunteer.
>> For me, it's more of a "both/and".
>> 
>> Similarly, John, I agree that educational (and social) reform is
>> important, but there are plenty of things going on outside of
>> academia, in the current society, that are worthwhile -- even if they
>> are not in themselves transformative.  These activities might appear
>> to be a "sideshow" or "distraction" from the point of view someone in
>> the currently-dominant institutions, but this is hardly a defining
>> characteristic.  For one thing, who really knows, in advance, when one
>> of these activities might become transformative?
>> 
>> Thus, we could wage an all-out war fighting for student control within
>> institutions, or students could just leave and do things under their
>> own control elsewhere.  Or, again, some blend of the two.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:22 PM, John <restakis at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Dear Folks,
>> >
>> > There is nothing inherently wrong with paying someone for a service they
>> > provide to you. Indeed, one of the absurdities of the present educational
>> > set up is precisely that students have so little say in the educational
>> > services they pay for. There was a time when some universities were operated
>> > as student-run educational co-operatives in which students subjected the
>> > professors that they were going to hire to scrupulous cross examination
>> > before approving their positions as educational service providers to the
>> > student body. This was the case at the University of Bologna until quite
>> > recently.
>> >
>> > So, one angle of approach is for students to have far more control over the
>> > selection of faculty, over the design and evaluation of courses, and of the
>> > running of the university itself – in partnership with the teachers
>> > themselves and other community stakeholders.
>> >
>> > Education is a classic relational good, that is, a good that is co-produced
>> > by the provider and the recipient of the service together.  Education
>> > doesn't happen unless both parties are fully engaged in the exchange of
>> > knowledge relations, and it is optimally produced when the educational
>> > relationship is one of reciprocity and equality. This is the reason why
>> > authentic education is not a commodity – it is an exchange of human
>> > relations and revolves around the question of the nature of knowledge
>> > production.
>> >
>> > The creation of equality, of reciprocal educational relationships, and the
>> > provision of control rights to students is the heart of how educational
>> > institutions need to be reformed. Unless this happens, everything else is a
>> > sideshow and a distraction.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> > On 13-12-16 4:49 AM, Joss Winn wrote:
>> >
>> > On 16/12/2013 09:13, "mp" <mp at aktivix.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On 15/12/13 19:03, anna at shsh.co.uk wrote:
>> >
>> > I certainly don't want to criticise the idea of a cooperative
>> > university and all the work you are doing at the SSC. However the
>> > fundamental distinction between students and teachers is that the
>> > former have to pay and the latter get paid.
>> >
>> > Is that what they call capitalism? Social relations revolving around a
>> > commodity form, in this case "education" as the commodity? Giving
>> > structure to a hierarchy, where there are experts (controlling the means
>> > of (knowledge) production) and followers (consuming the produced
>> > knowledge commodities, if they can afford it)?
>> >
>> > Class society in a nutshell.
>> >
>> > Yes, universities reproduce class society.
>> >
>> > Students in the UK and elsewhere are continually being reconfigured into a
>> > peculiar kind of consumer who co-produces themselves as 'human capital' -
>> > an 'improved' form of the labour-power commodity.
>> >
>> > We've been working on a critique and an affront to this for a few years
>> > now. You can read about 'Student as Producer' here:
>> >
>> > http://studentasproducer.lincoln.ac.uk/
>> >
>> > If this is of interest to you, I'd suggest reading this book chapter:
>> >
>> > The student as producer: reinventing the student experience in higher
>> > education
>> > http://eprints.lincoln.ac.uk/1675/
>> >
>> >
>> > and then more of Mike Neary's (cc'd) later work to develop it:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >                                         Student as producer: an institution
>> > of the common? [or how to recover
>> > communist/revolutionary science]
>> > http://josswinn.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/ELiSS0403A_Guest_paper.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> > Pedagogy of Excess
>> > http://josswinn.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Pedagogy-of-Excess-preprint.
>> > pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >                                         Student as Producer: A Pedagogy for
>> > the Avant-Garde; or, how do
>> > revolutionary teachers teach?
>> > http://josswinn.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/15-72-1-pb-1.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The Social Science Centre, Lincoln, take the ideas and the pedagogy of
>> > Student as Producer out of the university and, in one sense, is an attempt
>> > to develop it without the constraints of existing institutional forms.
>> > It's an experiment:
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.radicalphilosophy.com/news/an-experiment-in-free-co-operative-hi
>> > gher-education
>> >
>> > As for co-operatives as a new model for higher education, I think it's
>> > worth pursuing this as a transitional model to a post-capitalist form of
>> > higher education institution. I've been trying to think about 'academic
>> > labour' and the university as a 'means of production' and extending this
>> > idea to co-operation. I posted some thoughts here:
>> >
>> > The association of free and equal producers
>> >
>> > http://josswinn.org/2013/06/the-association-of-free-and-equal-producers/
>> >
>> > Notes towards a critique of ŒLabour Managed Firms¹
>> >
>> > http://josswinn.org/2013/07/notes-towards-a-critique-of-labour-managed-firm
>> > s/
>> >
>> > What is Œacademic labour¹?
>> >
>> > http://josswinn.org/2013/07/what-is-academic-labour/
>> >
>> > My friend, Richard Hall also writes about this stuff, too:
>> >
>> > http://www.richard-hall.org/
>> >
>> > All the best,
>> > Joss
>> >
>> >
>> > The University of Lincoln, located in the heart of the city of Lincoln, has
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