[P2P-F] Fw: Fw: Info

Mon Oct 24 23:56:01 CEST 2011

Umm, hello.  Who is Chris Nelson and why are you leaning on him?  This
guy has no authority whatsoever, but to humor you, I'll modulate the
tone and say he simply has no authority that is readily apparent.
Maybe you're lured by the authoritative tone in which he speaks.
Maybe's he's cute.  Maybe he comforts your insecurity when things get
a little heated, I don't know.  It's a mystery that you bring him up
at all because it tips your hand that you don't know what your talking
about and propagating old "canards" (how hilarious) to continue to
assuage the possible guilt you really don't want to face.  If you want
him to speak for you, perhaps you can just give him my email and you
can continue on with your ideology unhindered by responsibility.

cheers,

marcos

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Chris Nelson
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM
> To: 10natalie at cox.net
> Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>
> The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare,
> isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and never
> implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a
> conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire people, when in fact
> white-Indian conflicts in North America were entirely local or regional in
> nature, and Indian tribes frequently allied with the whites to dispossess
> rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux
> more than the whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion,
> not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the
> reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the
> federal government was administering them), but they were hardly
> concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the
> inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from
> ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with
> most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive: plundering stock,
> killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their previously aggressive
> ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left alone. The Indians treated each
> other with considerably more brutality than we treated them (think
> "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not routinely enslave and
> torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and
> Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral
> resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers
> vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the
> Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable
> dent.
>
> -----"Natalie Golovin" <10natalie at cox.net> wrote: -----
>
> To: "Chris Nelson" <cnelson at computer.org>
> From: "Natalie Golovin" <10natalie at cox.net>
> Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM
> Subject: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>
> I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.
>
> From: Michel Bauwens
> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM
> To: P2P Foundation mailing list
> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>
> Hi Nalatie,
>
> I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is
> merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and
> oppression.
>
> Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and
> how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were
> historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for
> pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the
> farmers were usually kept in place.
>
> Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the
> Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out
> North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the
> new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well,
> but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not
> seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated
> blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and
> genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
>
> Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm
> guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not
> proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these
> sometimes harsh discussions.
>
> Michel
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people
>> live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land
>> left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central
>> America to move in and "homestead"
>> The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each
>> other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th
>> centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when
>> growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There
>> were
>> also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with
>> this
>> subject mp READ
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mp
>> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM
>> To: p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org
>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>>
>>
>> borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin
>> argues they should be open?
>>
>> On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
>> > Agreed-that was easy.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Kevin Carson
>> > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM
>> > To: P2P Foundation mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<10natalie at cox.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of
>> >> interplay
>> >> among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup
>> >> religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical
>> >> knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to
>> >> today.
>> >> I
>> >> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The
>> >> interactions
>> >> were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big
>> >> exception-French&  Indian War) Spanish, French&  English migrants
>> >> interacted
>> >> very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come
>> >> about
>> >> when economic&  political forces join hands.
>> >
>> > Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead
>> > vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis.
>> > What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property
>> > of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds,
>> > wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to
>> > homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need
>> > (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical
>> > exploitation of the land.  The natives, in general, were usually
>> > amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using --
>> > I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using
>> > vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native
>> > citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican
>> > national might like to move onto.
>> >
>> >> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard
>> >> Left
>> >> friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about
>> >> school,  get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls
>> >> value
>> >> family and love more than future prospects of good jobs&  I think
>> >> that's
>> >> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of
>> >> years&
>> >> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
>> >
>> > I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone
>> > would get bent out of shape by that.  Anyone who wants to bully girls
>> > like that into having abortions against their own judgment or
>> > inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum:  the
>> > world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day
>> > and minded their own goddamned business.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
>>
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