[P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
Natalie Golovin
10natalie at cox.net
Wed Oct 12 01:01:06 CEST 2011
Hello Michel-I see people born unequal physically (including mental capacities/many different intelligences) and developing even more so with differences in nurturing, family circumstances, culture, experience, accident, etc. Inequality can often be useful in directing talents to activities needed by the larger social entity. And these needs change over time in complex societies. Ethical governments work for equal opportunity and demand equal justice. That’s a tall order in itself as govts are composed of humans which can be tempted to work for themselves or subgroups. I believe there is an innate tribal instinct that persists, which makes it even more difficult for govts to function effectively in highly diverse populations. Socialism seems to work better in small, homogeneous nations. I see peers as cohort groups not as some kind of existential equivalents. Equality as a condition for liberty makes sense to me only as it pertains to a segment you’re holding constant. For example, citizens in Republican Rome were more equal in liberty (even though many termed non-citizens lived as slaves) than the citizens of a modern US state with all its legal protections. I think you’re expecting too much from govt. Our differences may be based on the contrary assumptions of whether we’re beasts that must be prevented from doing harm or Rousseau’s kind savages that just need an opportunity to do good. That’s the basic political split. My impressions from history point to the former view with hopeful allowances for the evolution of people & their govts.
From: Michel Bauwens
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:41 AM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
Hi Natalie,
In my conception, equality is the condition for liberty and vice versa. How can you be free, when others are enslaved? Previous political eras mostly saw them as opposed, and this is pretty much what the struggle between socialism and liberalism was interpreted as being about, but in my opinion, and for an increased number of others, they have to be held together.
But perhaps you think of equality as sameness, etc ... Defining equality is quite complex I guess, with a polarity from equality of opportunity, on the progressive liberal side of things, to a demand for more actual 'real' equality,
see for example, http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality ;
Peer to peer pretty much says it all, if you are unequal, you can't be a peer,
And why is equality important, especially now with #occupywallstreet, which is a quintessentially egalitarian movement?
First of all, because of this:
* http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger
and second, from the horses mouth, the IMF:
"Speaking of the 99% versus the 1% - a new report out of the International Monetary Fund finds that one of the greatest factors for prolonged economic growth in a nation is a low level of wealth inequality. By reviewing economies around the world – and looking at economic variables such as political institutions, debt, and trade – the study found that by far – it’s wealth inequality that has the greatest effect on sustained economic growth – and that if nations are made 10% more equitable in their wealth distribution – then they could see economic growth sustained for 50% longer. "
(http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1)
and specially for you, from a libertarian manifesto:
a.. Concern for the downtrodden
Furthermore concern for the downtrodden follows from left-libertarian opposition to aggression against innocents. Those aggressed against- the oppressed- are just one group of the downtrodden.
a.. Current Distribution of wealth and land
Following from the previous post the recognition that current distribution of wealth and land is largely due to state intervention whether that be barriers to entry or statist privilege and that just because someone is wealthy need not mean they achieved it themselves and just because someone is poor does not mean that they make bad lifestyle choices.Following from this understanding we must reject classist prejudices.
(http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism)
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:
I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not human experience.
From: Michel Bauwens
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
It's not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ... however, it is possible
to find commonality around practical demands, such as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with neither half)
but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market
form is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers
but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama administration.
I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make your view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ...
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:
I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little.
From: michael gurstein
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM
To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list'
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
Hmmm...
M
The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6
A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?
Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.
Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully.
-----Original Message-----
From: p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org [mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people.
From: michael gurstein
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM
To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list'
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess...
The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy.
Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory.
The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA.
M
-----Original Message-----
From: p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org [mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy
From: Nicholas Roberts
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM
To: p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also
especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements
in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US...
too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements
the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA"
Occupying Occupy Together
ReplyNicholas Roberts via gmail.com to lbo-talk
show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago)
can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals.
get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process
its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles
even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc
there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much
now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions
soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life
but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in
take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)
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