[P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37

Tue Oct 11 02:34:11 CEST 2011

I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not human experience.

From: Michel Bauwens 
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM
To: P2P Foundation mailing list 
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37

It's not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ... however, it is possible
to find commonality around practical demands, such as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with neither half)

but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market
form is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers
but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama administration.

I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make  your view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ...

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

  I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little. 

  From: michael gurstein 
  Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM
  To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' 
  Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37

  Hmmm...

  M

  The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6

  A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?
  Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.

  Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org [mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin
    Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM
    To: P2P Foundation mailing list
    Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37

    How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people.

    From: michael gurstein 
    Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM
    To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' 
    Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37

    The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess... 

    The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy.

    Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory.

    The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA.

    M

      -----Original Message-----
      From: p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org [mailto:p2p-foundation-bounces at lists.ourproject.org] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin
      Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM
      To: P2P Foundation mailing list
      Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37

      You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy

      From: Nicholas Roberts 
      Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM
      To: p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org 
      Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37

      there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also 

      especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements

      in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... 

      too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements

      the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA"

      Occupying Occupy Together
      ReplyNicholas Roberts via gmail.com to lbo-talk 
           show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago)  

      can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals.  

      get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process

      its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles

      even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc

      there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much

      now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions

      soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life

      but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in

      take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP

        Today's Topics:

          1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)

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