[P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge

Sun Nov 27 20:39:06 CET 2011

I assume you recognize how condescending your tone is but speak this way
because you derive some pleasure from engaging in partisan political
conflicts.  I don't.  I find it endlessly frustrating.

I'm going to repeat the demands I've posted here many times before: (1) end
the wars and dismantle the American empire, (2) end drug prohibition, (3)
end the federal reserve bank's monopoly on the production of legal tender.

Nader gets it:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/22/ron-paul-ralph-nader-agree-on-progressive-libertarian-alliance/

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Michel Bauwens
<michel at p2pfoundation.net>wrote:

>
> I'm aware that paulistas are part of the mix Devin,and indeed nobody needs
> permission, but ows is not a movement of movements, but a movement of
> non-representational individuals
>
> but I see little trace of Ron Paul's 'let's privatise everything' in any
> of the ows actions or pronouncements ...
>
> there is huge difference between left and right anarchism (cfr Natalie's
> "Equality is for mathematics"), though I guess some Paulista's interpret
> things in different ways ... I don't believe any left anarchist would
> accept refusing access to different races on private property grounds...
>
> from what I've seen in surveys, most ows participants favour a progressive
> role for government action, not its dismantlement (independent of what you
> and I think about whether that's a good thing or not); and the stress is
> about the corporate takeover of government, not the governmennt takeover of
> corporations (tea party); the black friday ows actions are against
> consumption culture, not for more shopping (as the anti-ows tea party
> action I saw mentioned somewhere)
>
> now if paulista's can live with what ows is demanding, I'm all for it,
>
> for me it would be interesting to see a precise list of official paulista
> demands
>
>  Michel
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:54 PM, Devin Balkind <
> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> ... as if Ron Paul supporters need permission to work with OWS.
>>
>> Who do you think keeps camps running?  People who demand things from
>> government, or people who demand things from themselves?
>>
>> OWS (in NY) is an anarchist movement and Ron Paul is the closest thing to
>> an anarchist presidential candidate as I've ever seen.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>
>>> hi Devin,
>>>
>>> I personally am very thankful for progressive media like Democracy Now
>>> in order to get at least some quality info circulated and not relying on
>>> corporate media like Fox News
>>>
>>> BUT, my impression on Ron Paul comes from his own videos ... some of
>>> them are tagged under P2P-Right in my delicious and diigo tags,
>>>
>>> for example, the one where he justifies denying blacks entry to
>>> restaurants because they are property, advocating a total privatisation of
>>> education,  abolishing DoEd), criticising ows for having 50% profiteers,
>>> etc .. just his own words, no need for progressive media,
>>>
>>> in fact, I suspect his Republican contenders of circulating these videos,
>>>
>>> Ron Paul has integrity, I think, but I find a lot of his views
>>> unpalatable; that doesn't mean ron paul supporters cannot work with ows of
>>> course, or that some other forms of cooperation on concrete questions are
>>> impossible
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Devin Balkind <
>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is such an old paradigm conversation.
>>>>
>>>> First of all - yes I've seen anti-semetic signs at OWS, and next to
>>>> them there's usually soemone with a sign that says "we don't support this
>>>> person."
>>>>
>>>> Second, the fact that so many folks won't collaborate with each other
>>>> because they have different political beliefs is why we're in this mess.
>>>> It's old paradigm thinking and it's preventing a lot of much needed
>>>> production from taking place.
>>>>
>>>> Third, the arguments that you mention against Ron Paul are straight out
>>>> of the progressive media press releases.  Do some independent research.
>>>> Look into the effects of the war on drugs, US colonialism and the Federal
>>>> Reserve and tell me that those policies aren't absolutely terrible and need
>>>> to end.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   Regret using the term “lot’s of”-that IS something I’ve picked up
>>>>> on the net. But I personally have seen 3 on TV newscasts. The point is I
>>>>> fear where you’re going with this. It resembles political control in line
>>>>> with Southern segregation- at best encouraging people to disguise their
>>>>> preferences (promoting a surreptitious social atmosphere) and at worst, an
>>>>> Orwellian nightmare. Tyranny of the mob like Govt tyranny is still
>>>>> tyranny-and all in the name of a better society.
>>>>>
>>>>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 7:13 AM
>>>>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
>>>>> the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>>>>>
>>>>> hi natalie,
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this is a popular meme with the right, and you even say, 'lots
>>>>> of', but, can you show me one picture with antisemitic slogans, I have seen
>>>>> hundreds of pictures, been to zuccoti, and not seen a single one ..
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   Unless someone breaks the law, or encourages, provokes, assists
>>>>>> illegal acts, how can you justify not cooperating with them? First, in many
>>>>>> cases-you may never know what’s “ in their hearts.’” In a
>>>>>> Democratic-General Assembly kind of system-how can you exclude people
>>>>>> because they don’t share your value system? You draw the line with personal
>>>>>> relationships and voluntary acts like not working for a polluter, or voting
>>>>>> for an anti-gay politician. There have been many Anti-Semitic signs at OWS
>>>>>> protests. Do you not go because they are there? Kick them out? Less than
>>>>>> full inclusion turns freedom of speech, or any other freedom into a
>>>>>> mockery-just another kind of segregation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 4:17 AM
>>>>>> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list<p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] If the ?Tea Party Join Together, We Can End
>>>>>> the Malignant Partnership Between Big Government | ZeroHedge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Christian Siefkes <
>>>>>> christian at siefkes.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>>>>> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Christian Siefkes <
>>>>>>> christian at siefkes.net>wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > Would you work with the Ku Klux Klan if it could help foster
>>>>>>> your goals?
>>>>>>> >> > Where do you draw the line?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > good question, I would draw the line with explicitely 'anti-p2p'
>>>>>>> forces
>>>>>>> > such as racism, genderism, etc ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, that sounds reasonable. Peer production requires treating
>>>>>>> others as
>>>>>>> your peers, as equals, and anybody with racist, homophobic, sexist,
>>>>>>> anti-semitic views won't be able to do that, hence their
>>>>>>> participation is
>>>>>>> likely do to more bad than good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anti-abortion is about denying women's right over their own bodies
>>>>>>> (while,
>>>>>>> of course, men's rights over their bodies are never put in doubt),
>>>>>>> hence it
>>>>>>> is equally 'anti-p2p'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> well, the last thing is a bit more problematic for me, I see this as
>>>>>> an ethical opinion; for example, I have worked and communicated with
>>>>>> catholic distributists, who are very egalitarian (support distributing
>>>>>> proprety, catholic worker movement, live in collectives without property
>>>>>> etc ..) but find abortion objectionable because of their egalitarianism ..
>>>>>> of course, I disagree with this,  but I find it has little practical
>>>>>> importance in the cooperation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > a question for you: if you are working on a piece of free
>>>>>>> software, and you
>>>>>>> > discover your co-developer is KKK, would you stop working with her?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > these are by no means easy questions, FLOSS is full of
>>>>>>> libertarians, whose
>>>>>>> > values I object to ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know. Eric Raymond's pro-gun standpoint and some of his possible
>>>>>>> more-or-less racists sayings haven't stopped me from quoting his
>>>>>>> insights
>>>>>>> about free software.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> they are also majorly wrong in the bazaar/cathedral metaphor <g>; the
>>>>>> cathedrals were very participatory and distributed efforts involving the
>>>>>> whole population ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some time ago I discovered that the author of a little
>>>>>>> piece of free software I'm using has shockingly right-wing views:
>>>>>>> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/enemies/ . That didn't stop me
>>>>>>> from using
>>>>>>> his software, nor from contributing a little patch back to him, of
>>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I don't think people having personal views contrary to my own is a
>>>>>>> problem as long as it doesn't hinder cooperation in a project. But
>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>> other hand I would think it very wrong to invite people with such
>>>>>>> standpoints precisely *because of* their standpoints -- which is what
>>>>>>> anybody who talks about "building an alliance with the Tea Party" is
>>>>>>> proposing to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree, I would oppose any formal cooperation with tea party
>>>>>> organisations, they are a very dangerous, fascism-inducing political force;
>>>>>> but a few people call themselves that way and are pro-open source
>>>>>> libertarians; they should disown the label instead of claiming that they
>>>>>> are the true TP'ers and all the others are fake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, of course, if (say) an openly racist person's participation in a
>>>>>>> project would cause black people to leave to product, or discourage
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> from joining it, since they could feel no longer welcome, then it
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> the racist who would have to leave so as to correct the situation. I
>>>>>>> hope we
>>>>>>> agree on that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > what do you think of nader's alliance with ron paul, around the 3
>>>>>>> > priorities of ending the war, ending the war on drugs and 3 ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "and 3"? Ending wars, and ending the war on drugs are fine goals,
>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>> seems to me that Ron Paul is by far not the worst of the Tea
>>>>>>> Party--near
>>>>>>> candidates currently running. Nevertheless I suppose that such
>>>>>>> alliances
>>>>>>> will ultimately do more bad than good, since they will increase
>>>>>>> acceptance
>>>>>>> for causes that are anti-emancipatory and 'anti-p2p'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ron paul also has quite terrible positions on civil rights and the
>>>>>> like; I'm not sure if nader is correct is doing such an alliance, though I
>>>>>> respect Nader a lot; I think ows has a better position, by eschewing formal
>>>>>> political alliances altogether, and seeking broad commonality on a few key
>>>>>> goals
>>>>>>
>>>>>> at least for the time being ... if time, circumstances and maturation
>>>>>> require much more radical steps, even such commonality may become strained
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>        Christian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> |------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ------- christian at siefkes.net -------
>>>>>>> | Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/ | Blog: http://www.keimform.de/
>>>>>>> |    Peer Production Everywhere:       http://peerconomy.org/wiki/
>>>>>>> |---------------------------------- OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --
>>>>>>> It is only the identification of a Them that makes it possible for
>>>>>>> us to
>>>>>>> live with the epidemic of Aids in Africa or the death of thousands of
>>>>>>> children each day from curable diseases. The existence of capitalism
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> conceivable only on the basis of the dulling of our feelings ... that
>>>>>>> enables us to erect private morality into a wall to keep out the
>>>>>>> pain of
>>>>>>> the world.... Communism is the movement of intensity against the
>>>>>>> dulling of
>>>>>>> feeling that makes the horrors of capitalism possible.
>>>>>>>        -- John Holloway, Change the World Without Taking Power
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>>>> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Devin Balkind
>>>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>>>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>>>> @devinbalkind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Devin Balkind
>> Director, Sarapis Foundation
>> devin at sarapisfoundation.org
>> @devinbalkind
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>
>>
>
>
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-- 
Devin Balkind
Director, Sarapis Foundation
devin at sarapisfoundation.org
@devinbalkind
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