[P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was: "corporateperson")

Fri Nov 25 09:22:08 CET 2011

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

>   Damage to the environment is an externality that can be addressed
> (nothing is perfect) through taxes & subsidies.
>

agreed, to a point. The very purpose and goal of profit-maximisation pushes
corporations to undercut them though, and now they have clearly captured
the state apparatus. I believe that externalities need to be internalized,
hence we need a  new type of structure, market-oriented, profit-making, but
not profit-maximising.

> Capturing/measuring the costs is often difficult and relies on current
> technologies and legal structures.
>

true, but many people have been working on solutions, they need more
political power to push them through, so now they can only be applied on
small scales

> Poverty & inequality are in different categories and no “system” can
> eradicate them.
>

must disagree with that one; they can be eradicated and a more just and
sustainable system is within the realm of possibility; we don't need
perfection, but we can do much better than today

> Scarcity of resources and risk-taking play major roles in allocation, and
> choices become skewed as decisions are controlled by govt policies,
> religion, culture & personal ethics. Consider the simple example of
> providing HIV drugs to poor populations. Lengthening lives results in the
> infection of many more individuals unless the culture “buys in” to
> prevention like condom use. Profits pay for the returns to risk in bringing
> a product to market. Once a product successfully hits the street,
> competitors are encouraged until a dynamic equilibrium is reached and in
> the long-run profit is roughly equivalent to the interest rate plus
> depreciation. Today we have nothing close to that due to cartels, monopoly
> behavior, collusion, FED manipulation of interest rates, insufficient or
> over-regulation & favoritism etc. etc.,, all now made more complex on a
> global scale.
>

we can agree on this ..

> Short Run vs Long Run & Individual vs Group considerations also interfere
> with desired results. Granted, things are a horrible, F’ed Up mess and
> there’s lots of criminal behavior going on, but you can’t blame it all on
> “seeking profits” Prices and profits are just signals.
>

they are not just signals, because they are embedded in a particular
system, and this skews any signalling power they may have; also, price is a
poor, 'single' signal; we can do better; think about the stigmergic nature
of peer production where transparency allows global mutual coordination of
a multitude of players, without pricing at all; my argument is that this
can be transferred to material production, through collective open book
management

>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:13 PM
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
> "corporateperson")
>
> natalie: ideology aside, do you have any evidence for the efficient
> allocation of resources,
>
> are you aware of the damage being done to the environment, on rising
> inequality, on persistent povery and hunger in the world?
>
> in actual fact, corporations are the engine of systematic misallocation of
> resources, and precisely because of the profit maximisation logic,
>
> I recommend reading peter barnes' capitalism 3.0 (but especially his new
> upcoming book), and kelly's divine right of capital,
>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>
>> As to examples..I believe Kaiser Permanente is a model for cost-savings in
>> the health care industry and also highly rated in patient outcomes It's
>> essentially a not-for-profit Co-op of Doctors.
>> As to general corporations, I don't see anything wrong with profit as a
>> concept that motivates efficient allocation of resources. The problems
>> arise
>> from the time horizons & how the profits are dispersed.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mrc
>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:07 AM
>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list
>> Cc: Patrick Anderson
>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Product Maximizing Corporations (was:
>> "corporateperson")
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 11/23/2011 05:30 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
>> > Michel Bauwens wrote:
>> >> much better is to change the DNA and
>> >> not make them profit maximizers
>> >
>> > It *is* possible to change the DNA (or 'goals')
>> > of corporations
>>
>> do you know any who'd let their legal advantadges derived of their
>> "corporation" status ?
>>
>> (i'd like to know more about in comparision with the cooperative or
>> association status for example) some examples
>>
>>
>> i.e. get to use an account from our bank accounts sharing world network
>> for fundraising for your project.
>>
>> i.e.2.
>> get to use our legal number for doing your construction work if you
>> invest what you get from that job in a 'nice' project (aproved without
>> too much burocracy by us) (we won't tax you much)
>>
>> i.e.3.
>> is there an activists' activities insurance 'bigsomething' ? one that we
>> could use for granting projects developments (i.e. some works for the
>> state i.e. software implementations in the public administration is
>> taken by i.e. novell(SUSELinux) and then passed from them, after taxing
>> it, to a local subcontracted companies because the state papers asks you
>> for having a big economic activity and insurance)
>> (that was a real case that happened to 'me' while trying to get those
>> jobs for other more free local free software communities. ended with:
>> novell getting the job, people at schools misusing opensuse linux, it
>> could go wrong so probably after no more free software proposed by the
>> local goverment )
>>
>>
>> i.e.4. flash moneylender (i.e. at some cases you need to show you have
>> 5000 $ for setting up a cooperative, you could withdraw that money the
>> day after, but you need to show that)
>>
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