[P2P-F] Critical data on wireless meshes Fwd: [Arch-econ] Potential for global routeability in wireless mesh netsusing ipv6

Tue Mar 22 18:25:20 CET 2011

From peter ecclesine what i regard as a rather definitive statement on where p2p mesh is heading.

I a follow  u messaGE TO ME HE called HSLS is just another proprietary mesh  color emphasis mine.

My reason for calling attention to this is that before effort is spent on wireless meshes one better know from a technical point of view what is possible as well as what a standards compliant interface means from an economics and interoperable point of view.

Aaaron if you are able would you respond to comments that may be raised - I am on the book deadline i have been discussing with you

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi at cisco.com>
> Date: March 22, 2011 6:31:50 AM EDT
> To: "Economics of IP Networks" <arch-econ at cookreport.com>
> Subject: Re: [Arch-econ] Potential for global routeability in wireless mesh netsusing ipv6
> Reply-To: Economics of IP Networks <arch-econ at cookreport.com>
> 
> Hi Gordon,
>  
>    A couple of comments on what Sascha is saying about overhead and scaling mesh.
>  
>    In IEEE 802.11, we have been working on layer 2 mesh since 2005. In early 2005 we received a US Navy Research Labs proposal based on 15 years experience with mesh in Navy applications [algorithms disclosed starting on page 20]
> https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/05/11-05-0142-01-000s-proposal-dynamic-backbone-mesh.doc
>  
>    It has each station send one broadcast packet every half second, and using consolidated logic, every three seconds it reforms a dynamic backbone mesh with one portal to the outside world, and connectivity among all stations. The algorithm won an IETF manet bakeoff at NRL using nineteen moving pickup trucks to relay traffic around the labs. The algorithms were disclosed in 2005 in the reference paper.
>  
>    HSLS description appears to be more chatty about link state.
>  
>    DBS has limits in scaling, and in 2008 the 802.11s Project scope was relaxed to address larger layer 2 systems.
>  
>    Last week, 802.11s gave a tutorial of their nearly complete amendment, expected to be published in September
> https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/11/11-11-0380-00-000s-mesh-tutorial.ppt
>  
>    Over the same timeframe, the SmartGrid industry has deployed smart meters using above layer 3 meshing, and now comes to a point where issues of security, performance and scaling cannot be ignored. Zigbee has not scaled to 12,000 power meter radios per pole top radio, nor scaled in security.
>  
>    The SGIP Smart Energy Profile group will choose whether to require an upgradable security schema or to grandfather the Texas SEP 1.x security system (which would be like accepting 802.11 WEP as a part of a security architecture). http://collaborate.nist.gov/twiki-sggrid/pub/SmartGrid/HANTF/Home_Area_Networking_TF_SEP_recommendation_V3.doc
>  
>   To me, most mesh deployments will not have 20 hops, nor 10,000 nodes, and can function at layer 2/3, like switching does.
>  
>   I don’t see the applicability of HSLS in neighborhoods or highways or downtown.
>  
> petere
> Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
> MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
> Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
> "Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
> From: arch-econ-bounces at cookreport.com [mailto:arch-econ-bounces at cookreport.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Cook
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:16 AM
> To: Economics of IP Networks
> Subject: [Arch-econ] Potential for global routeability in wireless mesh netsusing ipv6
>  
> This is a result from a side discussion
>  
> and very very interesting to me. peter e or anyone - what is your opinion of what sascha is saying?
>  
> 
>  
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> 
> From: Sascha Meinrath <meinrath at newamerica.net>
> Date: March 19, 2011 10:51:03 AM EDT
> To: Gordon Cook <cook at cookreport.com>
> Cc: P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>, Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>, armin at easynet.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fidonet in community wireless projects?
>  
> Hi all,
> 
> On 03/19/2011 12:32 AM, Gordon Cook wrote:
> 
> in some way similar?  Only in the store and forward sense of making the next
> hop.  Randy bush was backbacking around south america in the 1980s doing uucp
> and then fido, dave hughes did fido with big sky telegraph, i carried a 9600
> baud modem to moscow for one of the first russian fidos.
>  
> wireless mesh is MUCH faster BUT although i'd like to see it happen i doubt that
> it will ever be globally routable. sascha, do you agree or not?  If anyone
> thinks it can be globally routable please tell me how.
> 
> IPv6 does allow global routability.  Currently, we're working on distributed and
> ad-hoc mesh routability at massive scale.  I don't think we've yet found a limit
> and (thus far) technological improvements have outstripped any scalability
> issues, but the problem of routing overhead is one that we're constantly working
> on.  Meanwhile, in terms of precursors, I'd look more to ALOHAnet and the like.
> Where Fidonet does have a closer parallel is in the notion of diffusion of
> information -- i.e., that key info could move slowly and didn't need to suffuse
> the entire network simultaneously.  When my team developed HSLS (see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazy_Sighted_Link_State_Routing_Protocol) this was
> the key breakthrough (and what dramatically lowered routing overhead to make
> mesh networking far more scalable.  Unfortunately, I couldn't convince
> developers I was working with to integrate the best-of tech from European folks,
> however, I was able to convince Europeans to integrate best-of tech from us.  So
> today, BATMAN and olsrd are the standards -- they uses HSLS-like routing, and
> the tech scales to incredibly large networks.
> 
> --Sascha
> 
> 
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>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 6:14 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
>  
>  
> "FidoNet is a point-to-point and store-and-forward email WAN which uses modems
> on the direct-dial telephone network. It was developed in 1984, and has over
> 20,000 public nodes worldwide.
>  
> "FidoNet has been owned and operated primarily by end-users and hobbyists more
> than by computer professionals. Therefore, social and political issues arose
> in FidoNet far faster and more seriously than might be expected by those
> raised in other network cultures."
>  
> ( this was written in 1992 and is
> quoted from http://www.fidonet.org/inet92_Randy_Bush.txt )
>  
> It would seem that there are at least some parallels, and that FidoNet,
> although technologically quite different from what we have today, was in some
> way a predecessor to the local mesh networks that are being established here
> and there.
>  
> Sepp
>  
>  
>  
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:59 PM, Sascha Meinrath wrote:
>  
> On 03/18/2011 03:58 PM, Michael Gurstein wrote:
> Why don't we ask an expert... Sascha, any comments.
>  
> It's on the decline, but still alive (fidonet.org <http://fidonet.org/> I
> think).  The
> decentralization is similar to some of the community LAN and wireless
> technologies, but I wouldn't say Fidonet was a precursor (technologically
> speaking).  Its hayday was 1980s/90s, but the Web pretty much crushed it over
> time.
>  
> --Sascha
>  
> Best,
>  
> M
>  
>   -----Original Message-----
>   *From:* Michel Bauwens [mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com]
>   *Sent:* Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:49 PM
>   *To:* Michael Gurstein
>   *Cc:* p2p-foundation; Sepp Hasslberger; armin at easynet.co.uk
> <mailto:armin at easynet.co.uk>
>   *Subject:* Fidonet in community wireless projects?
>  
>   Interesting question, does anyone have the answer?
>  
>   I'll relay to FAcebook,
>  
>   Michel
>  
>   ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>   From: *Facebook* <update+pjiidwm at facebookmail.com
> <mailto:update+pjiidwm at facebookmail.com>
>   <mailto:update%2Bpjiidwm at facebookmail.com>>
>   Date: Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 8:41 AM
>   Subject: Lorraine Lee commented on your link.
>   To: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>  
>  
>   facebook
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>  
>   Hi Michel,
>   Lorraine Lee commented on your link.
>   Lorraine wrote: "Whatever happened to Fidonet? Is the dna of fidonet alive
>   in some of there community wireless projects we keep hearing about?"
>  
>   See the comment thread
>   <http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=528245547&v=wall&story_fbid=202735439755014&mid=3ecb58eG1f7c632bGe0a39e0Ge&bcode=BnpORHc7&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com
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