[P2P-F] self-regulating markets

Tue Jun 21 15:32:13 CEST 2011

Dear Apostolis,

thanks for the update,

when you feel you have sufficiently progressed, don't hesitate to ask Sepp
to cover your initiative for the p2p blog,

Michel

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey, dont shoot the messenger.
>
> I agree about the role of the state but as I have said in another email,
> the state poses as a necessity if there is no other alternative that could
> productively express the opinions of many.
>
> What I am about to say needs testing and more thinking but let me tell you
> what I have done so far to create an alternative to the free market.
>
>  I have created a new class of currencies that are very similar to the very
> old currencies. What if each person used the creation of his work as
> currency. When someone owns 5 paul's chairs for example , It is meant that
> Paul will have to give him those 5 chairs in the future if he asks for them.
> This is then some kind of loan. Someone gives something now in exchange for
> something in the future. If he doesnt need the chairs, he might have to
> exchange Paul's chairs with something else.
>
> Have you found what is revolutionary in this model?
>
> The person who is in debt will always be able to pay back his debt since he
> can always make chairs, ie the risk taken by the one giving the loan is only
> that of the possibility that something happens to Paul or that Paul doesnt
> want to give back the money.
>
> In the current economy, another risk factor is that Paul cant pay back, ie
> cant find a job.
>
> The second revolutionary thing is that your money express in a precise way
> the possible products you can buy.
> In the current economy, you might have lots of money but the products that
> exist define what you can buy with them, money themselves cant guarantee you
> that in the future the products you like will continue to exist. So current
> money is a promise , a loan that might not be able to be fulfilled.
>
> This new currency holds in itself more information.
>
> I am sure that right now, you might be saying that this will never work
>  for 2 reasons.
>
> First, the quality of someone's product is what makes it tradeable and
> valuable. Since the one that owns units of this currency has to find people
> to sell them this currency, He needs precise information about its
> tradeability.
> Solution: This is what I am doing with my semantic trust metric, an
> attack-resistant personalized source of information.
>
> Secondly and most importantly, there should be a way to route currencies
> into currencies that are eatable, lol, i mean usefull. That was the biggest
> problem that required the use of gold in the old days and fiat money
> nowdays.
> Solution: The proliferation of Social networks made me think whether it is
> possible to digitize the economic graph.
> If for example there were some million unemployed people that went into a
> internet site and put what products they want and what their skills are,
> could there be an algorithm that would create cycles of economic flow, ie
> exchange of goods, in such a way that the algorithm would abide by the
> individualistic interests if its peers?
>
> I think there is such an algorithm and it can predict prices and flows of
> goods. I have found such an algorithm. That solves the routing problem.
>
> Now, imagine that an engineer would be able to put a new invention , means
> of production into the algorithm and the algorithm would be able to compute
> how much profit people gain. What this means is that this way there is no
> risk of investment apart from the possibility that something more
> awesome happens in the future.(Jack Black's words that mean a better mean
> of production)
>
> What has been omitted till now are 2 things.
>
> What is the relation of workers and their product?
> Workers own their product, that means that they themselves trade it with
> other products in contrast to what is happening now.
>
> Who owns the means of production?
> How are investements done?
> Those are under development. I have to look at them from the graph
> theoretic point of view. I have found solutions. I am trying to find the
> best one. Patrick andersons solutions seems close to one of them.
>
> It is important to note that those 2 last statements are the ones that
> differentiate this system from the current one.
>
> It is those last statements that require a 'state' to force them, or a
> control system that would minimize the set of outcomes as Ashby might say. I
> think that an organization with the help of cryptography could create such a
> state or control system to enforce those rules of play. It is also an open
> problem how the current laws could be used to enforce those rules.
>
> I intend to write a 'paper' about this after I finish creating the semantic
> trust metric.
>
> http://opensociety.referata.com/wiki/Main_Page
>
> 2011/6/21 Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com>
>
>> On 6/20/11, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I think by self-regulated he means that the government doesnt regulate
>> the
>> > markets. He goes on to show that self-regulation is in fact regulation
>> by
>> > few corporations, thus the free market is only a myth. He then goes to
>> > explain why free market proponents have promoted the idea that the state
>> job
>> > is only  that of 'punishing' those who do not abide by the rules, and
>> have
>> > withheld the true nature of the economy. That is what i understood by
>> > reading the synopsis.
>>
>> The government still does regulate them, in a very real sense.  The
>> few large corporations wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for
>> taxpayer subsidies, government-enforced regulatory cartels, and
>> artificial property rights like IP.
>>
>> There are two kinds of government intervention:  primary and
>> secondary.  Primary intervention is the basic structural privileges
>> which maintain corporate power.  Secondary intervention consists of
>> ameliorative regulations which limit the abuse and mitigate the bad
>> effects of the primary regulations
>>
>> What the right-wing variant of "free marketer" means by deregulation,
>> in reality, is simply eliminating the secondary interventions while
>> leaving the primary interventions intact.
>>
>> As Patrick suggests downthread, the state is the executive committee
>> and the ruling class and corporations act through the state to
>> regulate the economy.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Carson
>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>> Mutualist Blog:  Free Market Anti-Capitalism
>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com
>> The Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>> Organization Theory:  A Libertarian Perspective
>> http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>
>
>
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