[P2P-F] [P2P-URBANISM WA] Postmodern / post-structuralist philosophers and P2P Urbanism

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I join Nikos! Both writers have nothing to do with our ideas and conceptions
and they frankly influenced negatively a lot of youngsters with their
confusing and almost inextricable texts...

Best regards:

Professor Julio César Pérez Hernández
Harvard University Loeb Fellow'02
President Cuban Chapter C.E.U (Council for European Urbanism)
President Cuban Chapter I.N.T.B.A.U (International Network for Traditional
Building, Architecture and Urbanism)
Architect and Urban Planner/Designer
www.cigarclub.lu/perez
e-mail: jcaesar_2002 at yahoo.co.uk
Phone: 047 382727
Cell phone: 52373606

-----Mensaje original-----
De: p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com
[mailto:p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com] En nombre de Nikos
Salingaros
Enviado el: Monday, July 11, 2011 5:21 PM
Para: p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com
CC: p2p-foundation; Ken Wark
Asunto: Re: [P2P-URBANISM WA] Postmodern / post-structuralist philosophers
and P2P Urbanism

Hello everyone,

I'm entering this debate late, and on an immediately personal note. As
one of the workers in p2p urbanism, I do have a clear vision of what
we are trying to do. Please note that I have criticized both Derrida
and Deleuze in the harshest possible terms -- calling them
intellectual impostors in several articles and books. So I'm not going
to consider any positive influence of their thought on p2p urbanism.
Of course this is my opinion.

Best wishes,
Nikos

On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 5:17 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Ken has a new book on the situationists, which you may want to check out,
>
> will be book of the week soon on the p2p blog,
>
> Michel
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:17 AM, Geo Scripcariu <geo.scripcariu at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks a lot Michel and Audun. Great suggestions to research further,
>> excellent links! I read partly, some time ago, "The Society of the
>> Spectacle" and I felt (avant la lettre, before embarking in this PhD,
that)
>> Debord is the kind of thinker that has a lot to do with my own
>> interpretation of Open Source / P2P Urbanism.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Geo
>>
>> 2011/7/3 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Dear Ken,
>>>
>>> is your new book on the situationists dealing with this topic?
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Audun Engh <audun.engh at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:17 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [P2P-URBANISM WA] Postmodern / post-structuralist
>>> philosophers and P2P Urbanism
>>> To: p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>> I suggest the french writer  Guy Debord - 1931 - 1994
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Debord ,
>>>
>>> and the Situationist International movement that he was part of. SI  had
>>> an important role in initiating the May 68 rebellion in Paris.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationist_International
>>>
>>> Guy Debord and other Siuatinists were among the first to criticise le
>>> Corbusier and modernist planning, and hail the uncontrolable diversity
of
>>> historic  cities, from a radical, anti-authoritaran perspective.
>>>
>>> See for example "Nine Situationist  theses on traffic", from 1959,
>>>
>>> FULL TEXT BELOW
>>>
>>> -----
>>>
>>> Psychogeography was defined in 1955 by Guy Debord as "the study of the
>>> precise laws and specific effects of the geographical environment,
>>> consciously organized or not, on the emotions and behavior of
individuals.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography
>>>
>>> ------
>>>
>>> The Situationist City, book published 1999
>>>
>>>
>>>
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_situationist_city.html?id=lR_MiZPhT6
4C
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Early Situationist critique of le Corbusier:
>>> See page 157 of this book:
>>>
>>>
>>>
http://books.google.no/books?id=bREQibN9i-sC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=guy+debor
d+corbusier&source=bl&ots=OpizpIvHm8&sig=Raiw0fhYgciq6B-xdBwl2GZ24lA&hl=no&e
i=qVgQTrHtGoWcOsCawaML&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwB
g#v=onepage&q=guy%20debord%20corbusier&f=false
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Video:
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vftL-hHPttQ
>>>
>>> Society of the Spectacle, part 1
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV6k_SKkHKQ&feature=related
>>>
>>> Parts 2 - 8, and other Situationist films,  - see the menu
>>>
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> Guy Debord
>>>
>>> Situationist Theses on Traffic (1959)
>>>
>>>
>>>
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Guy_Debord__Situationist_Theses_on_Traff
ic.html
>>>
>>> 1
>>>
>>> A mistake made by all the city planners is to consider the private
>>> automobile (and its by-products, such as the motorcycle) as essentially
a
>>> means of transportation. In reality, it is the most notable material
symbol
>>> of the notion of happiness that developed capitalism tends to spread
>>> throughout the society. The automobile is at the center of this general
>>> propaganda, both as supreme good of an alienated life and as essential
>>> product of the capitalist market: It is generally being said this year
that
>>> American economic prosperity is soon going to depend on the success of
the
>>> slogan “Two cars per family.”
>>>
>>> 2
>>>
>>> Commuting time, as Le Corbusier rightly noted, is a surplus labor which
>>> correspondingly reduces the amount of “free” time.
>>>
>>> 3
>>>
>>> We must replace travel as an adjunct to work with travel as a pleasure.
>>>
>>> 4
>>>
>>> To want to redesign architecture to accord with the needs of the present
>>> massive and parasitical existence of private automobiles reflects the
most
>>> unrealistic misapprehension of where the real problems lie. Instead,
>>> architecture must be transformed to accord with the whole development of
the
>>> society, criticizing all the transitory values linked to obsolete forms
of
>>> social relationships (in the first rank of which is the family).
>>>
>>> 5
>>>
>>> Even if, during a transitional period, we temporarily accept a rigid
>>> division between work zones and residence zones, we must at least
envisage a
>>> third sphere: that of life itself (the sphere of freedom and leisure —
the
>>> essence of life). Unitary urbanism acknowledges no boundaries; it aims
to
>>> form an integrated human milieu in which separations such as
work/leisure or
>>> public/private will finally be dissolved. But before this is possible,
the
>>> minimum action of unitary urbanism is to extend the terrain of play to
all
>>> desirable constructions. This terrain will be at the level of complexity
of
>>> an old city.
>>>
>>> 6
>>>
>>> It is not a matter of opposing the automobile as an evil in itself. It
is
>>> its extreme concentration in the cities that has led to the negation of
its
>>> function. Urbanism should certainly not ignore the automobile, but even
less
>>> should it accept it as its central theme. It should reckon on gradually
>>> phasing it out. In any case, we can envision the banning of auto traffic
>>> from the central areas of certain new complexes, as well as from a few
old
>>> cities.
>>>
>>> 7
>>>
>>> Those who believe that the automobile is eternal are not thinking, even
>>> from a strictly technological standpoint, of other future forms of
>>> transportation. For example, certain models of one-man helicopters
currently
>>> being tested by the US Army will probably have spread to the general
public
>>> within twenty years.
>>>
>>> 8
>>>
>>> The breaking up of the dialectic of the human milieu in favor of
>>> automobiles (the projected freeways in Paris will entail the demolition
of
>>> thousands of houses and apartments although the housing crisis is
>>> continually worsening) masks its irrationality under pseudopractical
>>> justifications. But it is practically necessary only in the context of a
>>> specific social set-up. Those who believe that the particulars of the
>>> problem are permanent want in fact to believe in the permanence of the
>>> present society.
>>>
>>> 9
>>>
>>> Revolutionary urbanists will not limit their concern to the circulation
>>> of things, or to the circulation of human beings trapped in a world of
>>> things. They will try to break these topological chains, paving the way
with
>>> their experiments for a human journey through authentic life.
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>>
>>> Audun Engh
>>> INTBAU Scandinavia
>>> www..intbau.org
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> 2011/7/3 Geo Scripcariu <geo.scripcariu at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks to Stefano and Michael for the very interesting comments
>>>> along my question.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Geo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/7/3 Michael Mehaffy <michael.mehaffy at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Geo et al.
>>>>> I would point to Virilio as much more related to P2P urbanism, in
>>>>> several respects. He points out the failures of technology and the
role of
>>>>> competition and conflict between people as a key dimension of urbanism
--
>>>>> and the converse of that is their cooperation, and the strategies they
adopt
>>>>> to mitigate conflicts.  (In his criticism of technology's unintended
>>>>> consequences he is a bit more related to Ellul too if you know his
work.)
>>>>> Broadly speaking, and at the extreme risk of over-simplifying, I think
>>>>> the structuralist project is finally recovering from a period that can
best
>>>>> be characterized as epistemological muddle, that rose up around the
central
>>>>> problem of meaning, and the false positivist expectations that
language
>>>>> could somehow arrive at a clear position outside of external meaning.
 As is
>>>>> implied by Godel and others, this was a misunderstanding of what
language is
>>>>> or how it really works. In this I think Whitehead especially (and
Alexander,
>>>>> who is essentially a Whiteheadean) point the way out of this Kantian
muddle.
>>>>>  (I won't name names, but would include some of the folks you
mentioned!)
>>>>> I am very interested in this topic and have been nibbling away at it
>>>>> since grad school days.  Here is a paper I gave recently on it, if
you're
>>>>> interested.  At a conference with Nikos, as a matter of fact.  (I
don't
>>>>> dwell on the latter structuralists (or "post-structuralists" as they
are
>>>>> known more commonly in the States) but I think you will see the
>>>>> implications....
>>>>>
>>>>>
http://athensdialogues.chs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/athensdialogues.wo
a/wa/dist?dis=47
>>>>> Cheers, m
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Stefano Serafini
>>>>> <stefanonikolaevic at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Geo,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it's hard to give an answer to such a question, yet I cannot see any
>>>>>> relation between p2p urbanism and Derrida and Deleuze. All the other
Authors
>>>>>> you quoted can be in some way related. First of all, Foucault, then
>>>>>> Baudrilard, and in a traditionally meant "political sense", Zizek. I
don't
>>>>>> know enough the thought of Leach. Would add Henri Lefebvre.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nevertheles, at the first place I would put Christopher Alexander.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stefano
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/7/2 Geo Scripcariu <geo.scripcariu at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which of the following philosophers have anything to do -- in your
>>>>>>> opinion -- (and what) with P2P Urbanism?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Baudrillard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Michel Foucault
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Jacques Derrida
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5. Gilles Deleuze
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. Slavoj Zizek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7. Neil Leach
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geo Scripcariu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Geo Scripcariu
>>>>>>> PhD Student / Open Source Urbanism
>>>>>>> UAUIM Bucharest
>>>>>>> Mobil: +40745-09.61.91
>>>>>>> Direct: +4031-401.29.42
>>>>>>> Tel/Fax: +4021-410.54.15
>>>>>>> E-mail: geo.scripcariu at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Str.Sabinelor 123 Bl. 119 Suite 16
>>>>>>> Bucuresti-5 050854 Romania
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>> "P2P-Urbanism World Atlas" group.
>>>>>>> to register to the group
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> to register to the group
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Mehaffy
>>>>> Visiting Faculty, ASU
>>>>> NEW ADDRESS to July 1, '11:
>>>>> 4630 S. Lakeshore Dr., #267
>>>>> Tempe, AZ 85282
>>>>> Permanent Address:
>>>>> 333 S. State Street, Suite V-440
>>>>> Lake Oswego, OR 97034
>>>>> www.tectics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>> to register to the group
>>>>> http://cityleft.blogspot.com/
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>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Geo Scripcariu
>>>> PhD Student / Open Source Urbanism
>>>> UAUIM Bucharest
>>>> Mobil: +40745-09.61.91
>>>> Direct: +4031-401.29.42
>>>> Tel/Fax: +4021-410.54.15
>>>> E-mail: geo.scripcariu at gmail.com
>>>> Str.Sabinelor 123 Bl. 119 Suite 16
>>>> Bucuresti-5 050854 Romania
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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