[P2P-F] Bitcoin donation

[Michel Bauwens]

ok, I get it, so there are people out there actually wanting to 'buy'
bitcoins, and I wasn't aware of that, and obviously, this needs to be bought
and expressed by another existing currency, hence the 'value'

I 'got' it <g>

By the way, alt.currency/credit commons expert Thomas Greco is in Chiang
Mai!


Michel

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com> wrote:

> Basically Michel, the value of any commodity is determined by whether
> people believe it is of value.
>
> The fact that you can buy and sell something establishes a base-line value
> for it. The value is a balance between how much of the stuff is available,
> and how much demand there is for it from potential buyers. Economists called
> it the law of supply and demand.
>
> In the case of bitcoin, we are looking at a commodity (exchangeable
> electronic "coins") that is scarce - there are only so many coins in
> existence, and making more of them is a slow, difficult prcess - and for
> which there is a demand. People are looking around for some kind of means of
> exchange that can de-link them from the official currencies. Potentially, we
> have a great demand for bitcoins ... if the idea of using them as a means of
> payment ever really catches on. Even as it is, there is enough of a demand
> for bitcoins to "feel their scarcity", and thus, to make them valuable. A
> price is being set for bitcoins in exchange services. The price is entirely
> dependent on how badly people want bitcoins, and it seems that the price is
> on the upswing.
>
> This is really the same mechanism as with any kind of money. As long as
> there are people who want to use it to conduct their business (or to put
> away for future use), and as long as there is a restricted amount of it,
> money can be said to have value.
>
> The value of any commodity or any kind of money will go up if 1) more
> people want it or 2) some of it is destroyed or withdrawn from circulation,
> making it more scarce.
>
> Similarly, the value of any commodity or any kind of money will go down if
> 1) less people want it or 2) more of it is put into circulation, making it
> comparatively more abundant.
>
>

> That is the mechanism that determines the value of money - ANY kind of
> money.
>
> Sepp
>
>
>
>
>
> *"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"*
>
> http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/
> http://www.laleva.org
> http://blog.hasslberger.com/
> http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger
> http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
>
> .
>
> On Jan 19, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand
>
> how can a self-invented coin have any value at all,
>
> who determines that value?
>
> what makes people accept that it has the value it says
>
> which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for that
> value?
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support its
>> > use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from
>> > official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is
>> workable
>> > for more than just local exchange).
>> > To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site
>> > cyclonite linked:
>> > "How much is a Bitcoin worth?
>> >
>> > More all the time...
>> >
>> > As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...
>> >
>> > The value of  ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from  US$0.06  to
>> >  US$0.50  ...within only about 4 weeks.   Yes...   That was an 833%
>> increase
>> > in it's value.   Wow."
>> > (http://www.bitcoinme.com/)
>> > For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable
>> means
>> > it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value
>> excessively.
>> > It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin
>> > evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to
>> a
>> > marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.
>>
>> bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think
>> the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current
>> group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.
>>
>> Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase
>> seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I
>> could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters
>> jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the
>> initial participants if various scenarios unfold.
>>
>> Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically
>> inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants
>> joins the system.
>>
>> One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control
>> the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for
>> anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to
>> intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a
>> good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more
>> foresight into stability, health, etc
>>
>> > This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target
>> total
>> > of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the number
>> of
>> > active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total target
>> > amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at
>> 21,000,000)
>> > should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new
>> users
>> > for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly
>> stable.
>> > I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do
>> this.
>> > For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from
>> > experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status.
>>
>> Sepp, this is a great point.
>>
>> One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is
>> ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the
>> project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be
>> implemented, etc.
>>
>> I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system
>> at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could
>> simply mean that participation has stabilized).
>>
>> Bit coin claims:
>>
>> "Once a predetermined number of coins have entered
>> circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees
>> and be completely inflation
>> free."
>>
>> And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)
>>
>>
>> > Kind regards
>> > Sepp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
>> >
>> > Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although
>> > the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <cyclonite at safe-mail.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Guys,
>> >
>> > I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to
>> > manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.
>> >
>> > You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making or
>> > receiving donations.
>> >
>> > In my opinion the best available info for beginners is
>> http://bitcoinme.com.
>> > Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Cyclonite.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg
>> >
>> > Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Original Message --------
>> >
>> > From: Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > To: james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > Cc: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>, cyclonite at safe-mail.net,
>> > p2p-foundation <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>, Sepp Hasslberger
>> > <sepp at lastrega.com>, Georg Pleger <g.pleger at yahoo.de>
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation
>> >
>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Michel,
>> >
>> > Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,
>> >
>> > another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility
>> >
>> > - most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it a
>> >
>> > geek thing
>> >
>> > I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes
>> >
>> > care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some
>> >
>> > people may not understand what is happening.
>> >
>> >
>> > Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if
>> >
>> > p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology
>> >
>> > of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those
>> >
>> > early adopters.
>> >
>> > - the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to do,gah!
>> >
>> > I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.
>> >
>> > James
>> >
>> >
>> > Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to
>> >
>> > participate in any experiments with bitcoin
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>> michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > James,
>> >
>> > do you have a public key?
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's
>> >
>> > public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then
>> >
>> > send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and
>> >
>> > sending it to you
>> >
>> > quote:
>> >
>> > "Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A
>> >
>> > coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from
>> >
>> > user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with
>> >
>> > his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.
>> >
>> > To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user
>> >
>> > C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively
>> >
>> > maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each
>> >
>> > transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens
>> >
>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network
>> >
>> > folks.
>> >
>> > This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts
>> >
>> > too.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens
>> >
>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear,
>> >
>> > thanks a lot for this email,
>> >
>> > it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I
>> >
>> > will
>> >
>> > forward this to James Burke for possible implementation
>> >
>> > James, I think we should do this, what do  you think?
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <cyclonite at safe-mail.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> >
>> > Hash: SHA1
>> >
>> > Dear friends,
>> >
>> > I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for
>> >
>> > making a
>> >
>> > small donation.
>> >
>> > As  you  probably  know,  Bitcoin  (bitcoin.org)  is  a  new kind
>> >
>> > of a
>> >
>> > P2P
>> >
>> > crypto-currency in which the general public can  make donations,
>> >
>> > macro
>> >
>> >  or
>> >
>> > micropayments   in  a  secure  and   anonymous  way  usually
>> >
>> >  without
>> >
>> >  any
>> >
>> > transaction fee involved.
>> >
>> > You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or
>> >
>> > purchase
>> >
>> > services or goods in an increasing number of sites.
>> >
>> > In  order to  receive  donations you  only have  to  publish  one
>> >
>> >  of
>> >
>> > your
>> >
>> > accounts  as generated  by the  bitcoin client  or any specialized
>> >
>> > bitcoin
>> >
>> > trader (eg: mybitcoin.com).
>> >
>> > Currently  some   projects  as  www.i2p2.de,
>> >
>> >  www.torrentservers.net
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.
>> >
>> > In  my  opinion  this  kind  of decentralized solution without the
>> >
>> > need
>> >
>> > to
>> >
>> > trust  any  middlemen  is much better than  Paypal, Visa or
>> >
>> > Mastercard
>> >
>> > for
>> >
>> > security-minded people as most of your donors are.
>> >
>> > If  you  are  interested in  pushing  Bitcoin forward,  do not
>> >
>> > hesitate
>> >
>> > to
>> >
>> > contact me if you have any doubt.
>> >
>> > Yours,
>> >
>> > Cyclonite
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Sam Rose
>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>> skype: samuelrose
>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>> http://forwardfound.org
>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>
>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>
>
>
>
> --
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20110121/a0b595e6/attachment.htm