[P2P-F] What is a fair economic system to you?

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Just a small reply to Michel. Yes the only other alternative to the market
is if the society as a unit decides democratically for a fixed price.

2011/12/18 Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <xekoukou at gmail.com>

> Thank you all for your comments.
>
> In conclusion, one of the consequenses of trading and society is that
> individualistic rules should be changed to maintain the health of the
> Society.
>
> 2011/12/18 Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
>
>> Yes, these three suit me.
>>
>> I would perhaps also like to add, regarding the minimum rule - basic
>> income -,
>> that it not be measured monetarily, as speculation could devaluate /
>> evaporate its value.
>>
>> So instead, have the minimum income ( above an individual's vital needs )
>> be measured in a variety of units corresponding to ( locally produced ) :
>>
>> - minimum access to water , both drinkable and non-drinkable.
>> - minimum access to basic food income : with a variety of units in terms
>> of food calories intake, access to nutrition diversity and quality
>> - healthcare
>> - minimum access to housing : amount of square meters, quality of the
>> housing, ...
>> - access to heating ( of water, of the housing )
>> - access to minimum income in energy units ( at least electricity )
>> - generalized access to internet, with a minimum bandwidth ( sufficient
>> to upload or download medium quality definition videos in streaming )
>>
>> ////
>>
>> Regarding the Jubilee :
>>
>> Historically, if I remember properly, the jubilee seemed to be decided by
>> the king/queen - as all initial debt was contracted to them -
>> forms of money such as tally sticks<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick>,
>> as far as I understand, at that time was "spent" into circulation, and
>> demand for such money was initially created through the possibility to pay
>> one's taxes with it ?
>>
>> In a larger, more complex system, with a variety of currencies ( at least
>> for the currencies which emanate out of contracts ? ), I imagine that
>> having a free transparent market with a diversity of currencies could
>> enable local economic networks to form themselves and choose their
>> preferred mixture of currency usage.   Ideally, some of these currencies
>> would include a Jubilee.  Ideally it would be the ones spent into
>> circulation and on which some form of tax ( or membership fee ) could be
>> paid with.
>>
>> If governments do not cover externalities anymore, I could imagine that
>> forms of organization such as cooperative networks could, and that a
>> membership fee and other payments such as a form of use value insurance
>> could be paid with such alternative cooperative network currency.
>>
>> ////
>>
>> Regarding Cooperatives,
>> if most of the production can be local, and "sold"/allocated locally,
>> to its members, hence also to the active producers of the cooperative,
>> I would imagine there could be an additional incentive to create quality
>> products.
>>
>> I could imagine that a part of the production could be sold for another
>> type of currency,
>> such as euros, enabling trade for certain products or resources the local
>> economic network of cooperatives may not be able to produce,
>> or more ideally, to invest in production technologies and further
>> increase autonomy of the interdependent economic network.
>>
>> Actually, this is why I would like to use a "Transaction Graph" approach,
>> explained below...
>>
>> ////
>>
>> Regarding Netention,
>> I will in a separate mail put you in touch with one of its main
>> developers.
>>
>> Dear Apostolis, I am not a programmer, yet I am interested in the
>> approach you intend to take, or the work you may have already done in
>> trying to program a certain tool.
>>
>> A brief description of Netention, as I understand it, and in addition to
>> the pdf presentation on http://www.automenta.com/netention :
>>
>> I see it as a way for agents ( individuals, or other entities ) to
>> express their current and future desired needs,
>> and then enable to match them within a network as to create
>> interdependencies based on their choices.
>>
>> A kind of emergent decision making tool.
>>
>> I would like to use a netention graph approach,
>> for what I tend to call "transaction graphs"
>> http://sharewiki.org/en/Transaction_Graphs
>> ( transaction graphs is not necessarily netention, but I would like to
>> use it in such way )
>>
>> Which could for example make it possible for agents ( any person, or a
>> construction/legal entity ) to express the needs of a project,
>> enable others, as in crowdfunding, to express their support for such
>> project,
>>
>> by expressing its relation to one of their personal needs, or by
>> expressing a possible interdependent approach in which such project can
>> support other projects and individuals needs,
>>
>> by contributing in making explicit the needs related to such project,
>>
>> by expressing a willingness to support based on expressed needs - either
>> inconditionally, either conditionally.
>>
>> Conditional offers for support can for example be connected to expressed
>> personal needs,
>> such as, in reply to a tuition project, one could answer as conditional
>> offer : "I can provide tuition for 10 children if I am provided with a room
>> to live and some food".
>>
>> Hence such approach in effect can create and use a variety of currency
>> architectures, without necessarily creating a dependency on a monetary
>> monopoly, yet being able to include it in such graphed approach of
>> expressed inter-dependencies.
>>
>> Once that the needs and offers are expressed, a query can be used,
>> eventually there can be an automatic suggested matching, from which
>> individual users can choose preferred suggestions from ( using also other
>> metadata for choice, such as geolocation - distance metadata )
>>
>> Once these are chosen, a contract confirmation of engagement can be set,
>> based on the various metadata ( type of resource, timing, etc ) being
>> included.
>>
>> In some cases, contracts can be more complex - and can require a certain
>> pledging for a variety of needs being fulfilled.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> 3 additions then,
>>>
>>> the 'dante' rule, a maximum limit to wealth accumulation
>>>
>>> a minimum rule, i.e. basic income
>>>
>>> periodic reset, i.e. jubilee
>>>
>>> note that historically stable societies never had free market pricing
>>> but just price theories and practices, i.e. prices were set politically and
>>> socially according to what these societies saw as worth maintaining (which
>>> was an unequal but stable social order)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 3:10 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Right now, i think that there should be a redistribution of wealth. In
>>>> a fair society, it will be 'fair' that someone has more houses. Something
>>>> to be fair doesnt make it is optimal. To answer the general question about
>>>> the commons ,like land, each person should have equal time to use an
>>>> object. Land cannot be owned. Each person will use it for a specific amount
>>>> of time. One could also trade his right for this land to get another part
>>>> of land or resource.
>>>>
>>>> I liked the article on Fiske. I start from the individualistic point of
>>>> view, ie the worst case scenario. Communal sharing involves not measuring
>>>> what one gives and what not. For a fair system , we try to measure equality.
>>>>
>>>> My whole effort is to have equality in opportunity. I have found only
>>>> the market to be able to represent economic relations between people (that
>>>> are measurable).
>>>>
>>>> The problem i have is the problem of transformation.* There is no
>>>> objective measure to measure happiness or effort.* If it existed we
>>>> would then exchage 1 unit of effort of a person A to 1 unit of effort of
>>>> person B.
>>>>
>>>> Since there is no such measure, the only thing i found that does that
>>>> is the market.* The problem of the market is that a person could try
>>>> to exploit someone else in the bargain. With the proposal we make he will
>>>> only be expoited due to his current needs and his current skills, ie there
>>>> is an upper limit that is based on human properties. An economic system
>>>> that keeps bad memories has no boundary in its ability to exploit.*
>>>>
>>>> netention --- I would love if you explained to me how it works.
>>>>
>>>> my abstact model right now deals with contracts between consumers -
>>>> workers. Reality has more variables that can not be put in a model. Let me
>>>> explain my opinion on this.
>>>>
>>>> The production process involves 2 parties. Both gain through it, but
>>>> they also have conflicting goals.
>>>> Consumers want good quality of products and a low price. A workers
>>>> cooperative could create bad products since that way workers will get more
>>>> money.
>>>> Workers want good working conditions(1/3 of their life is spent in
>>>> their work) and a good wage. Consumer cooperatives could create hazardous
>>>> or generally bad environment for the workers to minimize the cost of
>>>> production.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is best if they cooperated.
>>>>
>>>> This is my exact proposition to have both rules work together.
>>>>
>>>> *Any person that has ownership of a means of production can retain
>>>> that part of the ownership that is used for creating non tradeable goods
>>>> for him as a consumer. For the rest of the means of production he retains
>>>> the right to not allow someone else to use it. If he allows a part of it to
>>>> be used by others, the owners will be paid the cost for creating such an
>>>> item  multiplied by the percentage o time that they used it. After that
>>>> part of means of production is allowed to be used by others, it is
>>>> considered part of the commons ,like land, and everyone has equal right to
>>>> use it.*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> I made this to retain  the 2nd rule at all times.* I also ask you to
>>>> try to use accumulated wealth to exploit people**.* I think that it is
>>>> impossible.
>>>>
>>>> This rule also has the consequence that workers cannot own the means of
>>>> production because then those workers would have better opportunity than
>>>> others.
>>>>
>>>> Now that i am writing this email i think that we could make a similar
>>>> rule to the previous one where we allow workers to retain ownership to the
>>>> means of production which they use to work but i am uncertain right now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/12/18 Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>>>>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes patrick that is what i mean. I also think that this is the only
>>>>>> natural - common sense thing to do. But i would like to hear what the
>>>>>> others say because i may be wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also agree with Dante about limiting private accumulation but I
>>>>>> think that if we do what patrick and i say, we will nullify the previous
>>>>>> wealth from affecting the future creation and distribution of wealth. Think
>>>>>> of this wealth like a ferrari. Let them have this wealth. the ferrari cant
>>>>>> make more ferrari s and increase inequality in opportunity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - ok , let the super rich keep their Ferrari. ( or Yacht , or
>>>>> Villa )
>>>>> What if we use the example of accumulated property of land and housing
>>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> (I am also in the direction of automating the whole process. People
>>>>>> will put what they want and how much they like to work at a specific job,
>>>>>> and the programm will automatically designate what job is the best for each
>>>>>> person and the prices and amount of products that will be created.
>>>>>> Engineers will also be able to put new production methods and the new graph
>>>>>> will be instantly computed plus the price that people would be willing to
>>>>>> pay for the new production method.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So you would still keep a market pricing approach ?
>>>>>
>>>>> This leads me to another p2pf page
>>>>>
>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Relational_Model_Typology_-_Fiske
>>>>>
>>>>> as for the software,
>>>>> I know other projects are in development, such as
>>>>> http://www.automenta.com/netention
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is one problem though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since profit will not exist,  it will just flow back to the consumers
>>>>>> and producers, we will have a problem of competition with the rest of the
>>>>>> world in which workers and consumers are forced to pay profit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The way I understand it through these conversations,
>>>>> is that there is interest in setting up what, to me, resembles very
>>>>> much consumer and worker cooperatives ?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_cooperative
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If people decide not to accumulate wealth to increase productivity,
>>>>>> they will unfortunately revert back to the system that creates inequality
>>>>>> since in the rest of the world we are forced to increase
>>>>>> productivity(through the profit maximization aim of enterprises).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
>>>>> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>
>>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>
>
>


-- 


Sincerely yours,

     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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