<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Christine, <div><br></div><div>I am thankful for the clear questions you raise in this mail group. I think that we should keep them in mind. I refrain from giving my (partial, full of reservations and doubts) answers to them because i believe that we need to get awareness of the questions we have in front of us first. Maybe there are other questions too. Maybe we can rephrase them to fit the realities of communities and histories that are specific in time and space. </div><div>However, i wanted to thank you and say that i share your view that we need to ask those questions and ask clear questions in any case. </div><div>Best regards, </div><div>Irene </div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Στις Τετ, 29 Σεπ 2021 στις 11:05 μ.μ., ο/η Christine Dann <<a href="mailto:christine@horomaka.org">christine@horomaka.org</a>> έγραψε:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>This is a really valuable discussion.
My take on it is that there will be no one size that fits all. Ted
Trainer assumes that local level communities can form and provide
most of the necessities of life (including democratic governance)
solely or mainly through voluntary effort. There are indeed
excellent examples of such 'voluntarist' communities in existence
(as there have been for over two centuries in most parts of the
world) but so far they have never gone to such a horizontal scale
as to make any significant dents on the market-state and
capitalist industrialism. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Contrast the voluntarist efforts to
create eco-villages and communities in heavily industrialised
countries with the organised/professional efforts to 'eco'
existing villages in rural India, as described by Sujit Sinha in
his 'Living Utopias Videos' post to the PeDaGoG list on September
29. (Excerpt below). <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Can we learn from both types of
initiative? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My experiences of being involved with
so-called 'pre-figurative' initiatives in Aotearoa New Zealand
(alternative currency markets and services, Transition Towns,
co-operative enterprises, community gardens) is that if they are
to go to scale, and persist, volunteer effort is not enough.
Organising and managing a successful market, week after week, is a
lot of work, and while many people may be keen to volunteer on the
day, most people in today's market-state societies are busy
earning their livings (and raising children) and have limited time
to volunteer. Especially when it requires skills they may not
have, such as accounting for money, raising vegetables,
facilitating meetings, etc. This means that voluntary work is too
often done by people who have time to spare, rather than the best
skill-set for the job. There can also be problems around
accountability with volunteers who are free to make up what they
think is required as they go along. Further, matching volunteers
with the tasks to be done, and motivating them, is a skill all in
itself - but it goes largely unrecognised and unrewarded. Hence
lots of well-intentioned and well-designed projects can fall over
or not reach full potential through lack of sufficiently skilled
personnel committed to making them work - week after week and year
after year. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So my big questions are</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(1) how do the long-lived examples of
just and sustainable communities actually operate?</div>
<div>(2) are they really all based on
voluntary effort alone?</div>
<div>(3) if not, what methods do they have
for recognising and recompensing the necessary skills of community
building and maintenance, as related to the provision of
necessities and the democratic governance of the community? <br>
</div>
<div>(4) are these methods usually
culturally specific, and/or are they (or some of them)
transferable?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's spring time here in NZ, and I just
learned a Maori proverb: "Koanga tangata tahi, ngahuru puta noa"
(At digging time just one person; at harvest time surrounded by
others.) So it seems that even pre-industrial, pre-state societies
grappled with the issue of who does what valuable work when. But
they mostly 'solved' it - until the colonists arrived and
destroyed their societies. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nevertheless - in our efforts to build
more just and sustainable societies, can we afford to neglect or
ignore this important dimension of social reality?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christine<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">"I
want to tell the whole group about my recent experience of a
workshop with village level activists and the kind of
materials and pedagogy used and the next level challenges we
will face. I think this might be of interest to the whole
group and people might have experience and ideas to share. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Due
to relaxations in lockdown I was able to conduct a two whole
day , face to face , workshops with 60 people . About 2/3<sup>rd</sup>
of participants were working at village level in 6 districts
of the state of West Bengal , one district each of the states
of Odisha and Jharkhand. So there were three language groups.
1/3<sup>rd</sup> were the urban staff of an NGO which works in
these rural areas , primarily trying to create village
discussion forums , to take forward many of the ideas of
“alternatives to Industrialism” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In
three sessions I circulated a one page note with 10-12 main
points each on Amish ( USA) , Kibbutz( Israel) , and Mendha
village ( India – maharashtra ) . These notes were in
vernacular language. In groups of 6-8 persons they read the
note, discussed , and came up with written comments and
questions in about 20 minutes . As I collected the notes and
started discussing , I showed them slides of still images of
Amish ( not many available) and a 5 minute clipping from a
film called “Raising the Barn” . For kibbutz also still
images. And for Mendha a short 10 minute film. Each of these
sessions went on for more than 2 hours with lots of animated
discussions. The short note, the still photos , the short film
were really helpful. We had planned to do Zapatistas but ran
out of time. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">These
activists would like to tell these stories and initiate
discussions at district, sub-district and at village forums
which they are trying to create. But they need more “detailed
stories” of such cases in the vernacular so that can handle
all kinds of questions . In India Vikalp Sangam has already
started writing detailed case studies in some state languages
and also making audiovisuals. " </span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On 30/09/21 2:39 am, Carlos Tornel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Thanks Ariel and Tom!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm not
advocating nor think that struggling to achieve state power is
the way through - We have the experiences of Bolivia and
Ecuador with indigenous or indigenous backed governments that
tried to take control of the state only to find that the state
operates in a global capitalist context which meant for many
of them an increase forms of extraction and forms of violence
against them and the very nature that they gave rights to. So
I do agree with Ted that this is not the way forward, as well
as with many Latin American thinkers who argue along the same
lines (Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). What I was thinking
about was more in the lines of what can we still demand of the
actually existing state or use the tools that already exist
within it, to achieve some of the goals we want to achieve.
I'm thinking particularly about some indigenous communities'
struggles that are suing the state or demanding their rights
be granted and respected. These are of course tools that were
built by and "inside" the master's house, so I wouldn't say
these will necessarily lead towards a more just or equal
world, but they are nonetheless tools we can use to resist as
we move forwards in the creation of a new world. So long story
short, should we just ignore the state or can we 'use it', not
to conquer state power, but to use the tools at our disposal
keeping in mind that the ultimate goal should be societies
that are rid of the state? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This might refer back to the point Ariel was making about
what can be mediated with existing institutions. Although I'm
not sure that I agree with what Tom was mentioning. Why assume
that life-saving medicine of technological innovations such as
solar panels of broadband need the State? Just thinking about
this in 10 year anniversary of Occupy shows that people can
organize food systems, health clinics, reflection and
discussion groups all without the state, universities of
hospitals. Of course this doesn't mean that we should get rid
of the hospitals now, but we can surely work our way forward
so that all these institutions that are not necessarily there
for our well-being but to create and exacerbate our
dependencies on them can be rethought or simply cese to be
needed in the not so distant future?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the
chance to continue this debate and listening to other folk's
opinions!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las
14:14, Tom Abeles (<<a href="mailto:tabeles@gmail.com" target="_blank">tabeles@gmail.com</a>>) escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><span>I
would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed
life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart
surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without
universities, research and technology which has given us
solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is
imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis. The
Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these issues.</span><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at
7:20 PM Ariel Salleh <<a href="mailto:arielsalleh7@gmail.com" target="_blank">arielsalleh7@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Nice point Carlos.<br>
Considering how states are historically sex-gendered
institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours
and Ted’s position …?<br>
Ariel<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <<a href="mailto:tornelc@gmail.com" target="_blank">tornelc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!<br>
<br>
I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I
could share some thoughts after the reading. <br>
<br>
I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we
can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive,
etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns
when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in
different spaces, such as what do we do with state power?
With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do
we move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the
state? Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes
(although not so many have looked seriously at this link
until recently) have formulated proposals against this,
i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state and
progressively move away from it. However this brings back
the debate we've been having for some time now in Latin
America, should we seek to take back the state or not? My
own opinion is that we should, through several of the
proposals presented in the article, such as food and
energy sovereignty, we can progressively start to move
away from the state, leading towards more convivial
societies. However it does seem that the state will have
to play a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to
think of the transition from one society to another in
different scales and with different agencies: I.e. What
should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in
local and communal terms and how can we continue to build
networks of solidarity or communitarian entanglements at
the regional, and even global level. <br>
<br>
My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very
insightful and useful analysis.<br>
<br>
Best, <br>
<br>
Carlos <br>
<br>
El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<<a href="mailto:dpallav@gmail.com" target="_blank">dpallav@gmail.com</a>>)
escribió:<br>
The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on
“prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing
society. The most effective way to get people to see the
sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as
many examples of them as possible here and now. This
approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we
persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical
change in structures might be brought about peacefully.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Friends,<br>
<br>
A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable
society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological
Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion
on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core
characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society,
operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please
share the article with your networks and join the
discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in
case you would like to contact him directly.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/</a><br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Pallav<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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