Re: [P2P-F] An update on BIBO, financial stability standards, and the debt-virus hypothesis
Many thanks Stephane, I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space? I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting, Michel On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde <[email protected]
wrote:
You can present Open-UDC with :
General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
1) Implementation with centralised server 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation 3) Implementation with P2P System
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.
Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
Cher Stephane,
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
Un grand merci!
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]<[email protected]>
wrote:
didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]>wrote:
Ok!
J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du Open-Universal Digital Currency project http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]
wrote:
Bonjour matinal Michel,
Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.... Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment. Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
Amicalement
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
Dear Sepp,
because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, but perhaps you can add an extra comment?
also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009,
Michel
<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869> [image: photo of Michel Bauwens] Michel Bauwens 16th February 2011
In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently unstable banking money system.
This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and Ardeshir Mehta.
Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the infinite creation of debt through compound interest.
You can find it here<http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html> .
The context:
*“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “*
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_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net <http://p2pfoundation.net> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net <http://p2pfoundation.net> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
------------------------------ ------------------------------
Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
Dear Michel, Stephane, I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex. While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system. It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable. Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached. Kind regards Sepp "The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition" http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme . On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
Many thanks Stephane,
I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space?
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde <[email protected]> wrote: You can present Open-UDC with :
General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
1) Implementation with centralised server 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation 3) Implementation with P2P System
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS. Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
Cher Stephane,
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
Un grand merci!
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]> wrote: Ok!
J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du Open-Universal Digital Currency project
http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]> wrote: Bonjour matinal Michel,
Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.... Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment. Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
Amicalement
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
Dear Sepp,
because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, but perhaps you can add an extra comment?
also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009,
Michel
Michel Bauwens 16th February 2011
In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently unstable banking money system.
This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and Ardeshir Mehta.
Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the infinite creation of debt through compound interest.
You can find it here.
The context:
“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
Stephane, In cosmology, expansion and especially super-fast expansion of space at the time of the big bang is theorized, just as the big bang itself is theorized, but that does not mean either one of it actually happened. I am not a believer in either the big bang nor in expansion theory. In the economy, inflation may be what we have had many times in the past, and what we also have today, but that does not make it right - in my view - to design a currency that will lead to constant inflation by its very design, especially when it would be easy to avoid that. I can see that the constant emission of new money by every participant would tend to counter-act the effects of inflation on the individuals who are participating, but I do believe that prices should not be going up routinely just because our monetary system is not designed to be stable. Kind regards Sepp "The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition" http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme . On Feb 9, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Stéphane Laborde wrote:
I'm afraid you think as classical economics fail as well as Newton fails in front of Einstein.
Sapce Inflate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_%28cosmology%29
Why ? If not gravitation would have collapse all energy in a big black hole...
For the same reason there is no problem with money inflation. There is only problem when it is a CENTER who inflate the money to a benefice of a little part of population, and no compensation to others.
Prices don't go high when creativity create new goods. But when creativity create new goods, and money is CENTRALISED, then exchanges are not possible, and the inflation CENTER take all the old and new goods for itself.
Another extremely important point is the CHANGE of generation on earth. Money creation HAS NO RIGHT to be done by a generation without the next one. Every human paticipate in the money system. Present and future members.
So to be faire with all members present of future the RELATIVE part of money SHOULD BE THE SAME for all time.
That is to say dm / m = Constant in time.
Easy college mathematic problem => M(t) = M(0) Exp (c*t)
Which "c" is ok ?
Given a life expectancy of "ev" for a population, the relative sum of money created for each member should be the same during his all life =>
Sum ( t0 -> t0+ev) Exp (ct) = 99%
Is ok for an ev = 80 years with c = ln (100) / ev => c = 5,75% / year
All this is part of the demonstration of Relative Money Theory : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10....
It is also compatible with reality : http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EZMGVwURo3M/ScB_j8V3yWI/AAAAAAAAA2E/ipvj1Y0u9y4/s4...
And GOLD or ANY FIXED MONEY is a great MISSANDERSTOOD of the nature of RELATIVE NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE : http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww...
The problem IS NOT inflation of money which is ok SINCE 10 000 YEARS. The problem is when it is a CENTER OF EMISSION who do it privating people of FREE EXCHANGE with the UNIVERSAL TOOL, that money represents. Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 09/02/2011 20:22, Sepp Hasslberger a écrit :
Dear Michel, Stephane,
I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex.
While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page
http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system.
It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable.
Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached.
Kind regards Sepp
"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"
http://www.newmediaexplorer..org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
.
On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
Many thanks Stephane,
I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space?
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde <[email protected]> wrote: You can present Open-UDC with :
General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
1) Implementation with centralised server 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation 3) Implementation with P2P System
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS. Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
Cher Stephane,
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
Un grand merci!
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]> wrote: Ok!
J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du Open-Universal Digital Currency project
http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]> wrote: Bonjour matinal Michel,
Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.... Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment. Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
Amicalement
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
Dear Sepp,
because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, but perhaps you can add an extra comment?
also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009,
Michel
Michel Bauwens 16th February 2011
In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently unstable banking money system.
This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and Ardeshir Mehta.
Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the infinite creation of debt through compound interest.
You can find it here.
The context:
“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011
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I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that there is no solid underlying rationale that assures *reciprocity*, which is basic objective of any monetary system/currency--give as much value as you get over a reasonably short period of time. I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something that should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system. Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT reflected in the supply of exchange media (money). Anyone who has read my latest book, /The End of Money/, should realize that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or debits in a credit clearing system) is determined by the amount of trading, not by the number of participants. It is the total amount of credit that has been extended by sellers to buyers that has not yet been cleared by those buyers having reciprocated by selling. The supply of "money" (credit) outstanding, therefore, is automatically determined by the needs of the traders, increasing and decreasing in accordance with transaction (economic) activity. There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the sales history of each account.. E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental principles. I wish more people would read his books. Thomas H. Greco, Jr. [email protected] Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com Blogs: Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing or Amazon.com. On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
Dear Michel, Stephane,
I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex.
While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page
http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system.
It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable.
Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached.
Kind regards Sepp
*/"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"/*
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
.
On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
Many thanks Stephane,
I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space?
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
You can present Open-UDC with :
General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
1) Implementation with centralised server 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation 3) Implementation with P2P System
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.
Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
Cher Stephane,
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
Un grand merci!
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Ok!
J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du
Open-Universal Digital Currency project
http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Bonjour matinal Michel,
Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.... Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment. Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
Amicalement
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Dear Sepp,
because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, but perhaps you can add an extra comment?
also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009,
Michel
<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869>
photo of Michel Bauwens Michel Bauwens 16th February 2011
In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently unstable banking money system.
This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and Ardeshir Mehta.
Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the infinite creation of debt through compound interest.
You can find it here <http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html>.
The context:
/“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “/
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thanks for the exchanges! 2011/2/10 Thomas Greco <[email protected]>
I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that there is no solid underlying rationale that assures *reciprocity*, which is basic objective of any monetary system/currency--give as much value as you get over a reasonably short period of time.
I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something that should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system. Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT reflected in the supply of exchange media (money).
Anyone who has read my latest book, *The End of Money*, should realize that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or debits in a credit clearing system) is determined by the amount of trading, not by the number of participants. It is the total amount of credit that has been extended by sellers to buyers that has not yet been cleared by those buyers having reciprocated by selling. The supply of "money" (credit) outstanding, therefore, is automatically determined by the needs of the traders, increasing and decreasing in accordance with transaction (economic) activity. There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the sales history of each account..
E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental principles. I wish more people would read his books.
Thomas H. Greco, [email protected] Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com Blogs: Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
Dear Michel, Stephane,
I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex.
While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page
http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system.
It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable.
Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached.
Kind regards Sepp
*"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"*
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
.
On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
Many thanks Stephane,
I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space?
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde < [email protected]> wrote:
You can present Open-UDC with :
General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
1) Implementation with centralised server 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation 3) Implementation with P2P System
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.
Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
Cher Stephane,
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
Un grand merci!
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]<[email protected]>
wrote:
didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]>wrote:
Ok!
J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du Open-Universal Digital Currency project http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber < [email protected]> wrote:
Bonjour matinal Michel,
Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.... Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment. Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
Amicalement
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
> > Dear Sepp, > > because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, > but perhaps you can add an extra comment? > > also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to > say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009, > > Michel > > > <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869> > [image: photo of Michel Bauwens] > Michel Bauwens > 16th February 2011 > > In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed > standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently > unstable banking money system. > > This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular > through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and > Ardeshir Mehta. > > Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main > points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the > infinite creation of debt through compound interest. > > You can find it here<http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html> > . > > The context: > > *“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by > banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that > neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have > written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a > fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence > as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued > in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the > interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will > be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “* > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens> > > Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
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-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
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------------------------------ ------------------------------
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thanks stephane, if one day you have an english collaborator or a text which explains the philosophical foundations of your system/proposal, an elaboration of your points below, do let me know, Michel On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Stéphane Laborde <[email protected]
wrote:
Le 10/02/2011 09:37, Thomas Greco a écrit :
I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that there is no solid underlying rationale that assures *reciprocity*, which is basic objective of any monetary system/currency--give as much value as you get over a reasonably short period of time.
This means nothing as value is totally relative to any individual.
Neither Leonard da Vinci nor Albert Einstein has received such a "recyprocity". It should have been impossible to any member of their community as their GIFT of VALUE had no common mesure, and was not understood.
This is why this false idea conduce all pre-relativistic thought into crisis wall. By not understanding FREEDOM and CREATIVITY, as basic and fundamental element of any economy.
Creativity has no mesure.
Exchange is only an agreement, not a common mesure.
I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something that should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system. Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT reflected in the supply of exchange media (money).
Missundestanding between VALUE (production) which is an INDIVIDUAL MESURE, and MONEY, which is a COMMON (community) agreement to allow exchanges.
I don't agree to any "production" you could define, neither millions of people. What you define as "production" is "destruction" for other people, and no one can define it but denying FREEDOM of choice of what is value and what it is not.
Anyone who has read my latest book, *The End of Money*, should realize that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or debits in a credit clearing system) is determined by the amount of trading, not by the number of participants. It is the total amount of credit that has been extended by sellers to buyers that has not yet been cleared by those buyers having reciprocated by selling. The supply of "money" (credit) outstanding, therefore, is automatically determined by the needs of the traders, increasing and decreasing in accordance with transaction (economic) activity.
I deny ANY justification of creating money by CREDIT.
This is contradictory with RELATIVE MONEY THEORY. Relative Money Theory deny the right to any individual to CREATE money by credit. Relative Money Theory is only compatible with 100% monney created by universal dividend as only acceptable basis.
There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the sales history of each account..
This denying DEATH of people as liberating debts, and so create money for nothing.
Births and Deaths are not understood by classical analyses. Their ignore deaths, and deny the right to be born. They don't understand what is a discrete flow.
Eternel ignorance of reality of births and deaths is the basis of all generations crisis since 10 000 years.
E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental principles. I wish more people would read his books.
Thomas H. Greco, [email protected] Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com Blogs: Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
Dear Michel, Stephane,
I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex.
While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page
http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system.
It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable.
Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached.
Kind regards Sepp
*"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"*
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
.
On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
Many thanks Stephane,
I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space?
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde < [email protected]> wrote:
You can present Open-UDC with :
General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
1) Implementation with centralised server 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation 3) Implementation with P2P System
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.
Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
Cher Stephane,
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
Un grand merci!
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]<[email protected]>
wrote:
didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <[email protected]>wrote:
Ok!
J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du Open-Universal Digital Currency project http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber < [email protected]> wrote:
Bonjour matinal Michel,
Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.... Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment. Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
Amicalement
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
> > Dear Sepp, > > because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, > but perhaps you can add an extra comment? > > also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to > say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009, > > Michel > > > <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869> > [image: photo of Michel Bauwens] > Michel Bauwens > 16th February 2011 > > In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed > standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently > unstable banking money system. > > This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular > through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and > Ardeshir Mehta. > > Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main > points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the > infinite creation of debt through compound interest. > > You can find it here<http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html> > . > > The context: > > *“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by > banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that > neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have > written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a > fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence > as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued > in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the > interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will > be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “* > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens> > > Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
------------------------------ ------------------------------
Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
------------------------------
Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3433 - Date: 09/02/2011
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
If you can prove your theory of monetary relativity, I will applaud you. Thomas H. Greco, Jr. [email protected] Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com Blogs: Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing or Amazon.com. On 02/10/2011 2:22 AM, Stéphane Laborde wrote:
Le 10/02/2011 09:37, Thomas Greco a écrit :
I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that there is no solid underlying rationale that assures *reciprocity*, which is basic objective of any monetary system/currency--give as much value as you get over a reasonably short period of time.
This means nothing as value is totally relative to any individual.
Neither Leonard da Vinci nor Albert Einstein has received such a "recyprocity". It should have been impossible to any member of their community as their GIFT of VALUE had no common mesure, and was not understood.
This is why this false idea conduce all pre-relativistic thought into crisis wall. By not understanding FREEDOM and CREATIVITY, as basic and fundamental element of any economy.
Creativity has no mesure.
Exchange is only an agreement, not a common mesure.
I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something that should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system. Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT reflected in the supply of exchange media (money).
Missundestanding between VALUE (production) which is an INDIVIDUAL MESURE, and MONEY, which is a COMMON (community) agreement to allow exchanges.
I don't agree to any "production" you could define, neither millions of people. What you define as "production" is "destruction" for other people, and no one can define it but denying FREEDOM of choice of what is value and what it is not.
Anyone who has read my latest book, /The End of Money/, should realize that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or debits in a credit clearing system) is determined by the amount of trading, not by the number of participants. It is the total amount of credit that has been extended by sellers to buyers that has not yet been cleared by those buyers having reciprocated by selling. The supply of "money" (credit) outstanding, therefore, is automatically determined by the needs of the traders, increasing and decreasing in accordance with transaction (economic) activity.
I deny ANY justification of creating money by CREDIT.
This is contradictory with RELATIVE MONEY THEORY. Relative Money Theory deny the right to any individual to CREATE money by credit. Relative Money Theory is only compatible with 100% monney created by universal dividend as only acceptable basis.
There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the sales history of each account..
This denying DEATH of people as liberating debts, and so create money for nothing.
Births and Deaths are not understood by classical analyses. Their ignore deaths, and deny the right to be born. They don't understand what is a discrete flow.
Eternel ignorance of reality of births and deaths is the basis of all generations crisis since 10 000 years.
E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental principles. I wish more people would read his books.
Thomas H. Greco, Jr. [email protected] Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand Website:http://www.Reinventingmoney.com Blogs: Beyond Money:http://beyondmoney.net Tom's News and Views:http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com Photo gallery:http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
Dear Michel, Stephane,
I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex.
While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page
http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system.
It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable.
Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached.
Kind regards Sepp
*/"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"/*
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
.
On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
Many thanks Stephane,
I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space?
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
You can present Open-UDC with :
General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
1) Implementation with centralised server 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation 3) Implementation with P2P System
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.
Stéphane Laborde 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS Tel. 09 54 87 03 18 Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
Cher Stephane,
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
Un grand merci!
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
Michel
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Ok!
J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du
Open-Universal Digital Currency project
http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Bonjour matinal Michel,
Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.... Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment. Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
Amicalement
Olivier
2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Dear Sepp,
because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, but perhaps you can add an extra comment?
also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009,
Michel
<http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869>
photo of Michel Bauwens Michel Bauwens 16th February 2011
In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently unstable banking money system.
This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and Ardeshir Mehta.
Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the infinite creation of debt through compound interest.
You can find it here <http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html>.
The context:
/“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “/
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net <http://www.p2pfoundation.net/> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- Olivier Auber 0675038880
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation..net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens <http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr <http://www.avg.fr/> Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net <http://p2pfoundation.net/> - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
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participants (4)
-
Michel Bauwens -
Sepp Hasslberger -
Stéphane Laborde -
Thomas Greco