Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a Partner State...
Dear friends, on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on. Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a ‘Partner State’, and lessons for future Commons Transition Strategies http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-par... We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we have to bring this two language spaces together. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia --- Quiliro wrote Great to see Michel’s and Willi’s great perspectives. I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or stateful society against these abuses? --- my answer dear Quiliro and all, your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to do for independence in our development of our life environment? Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that. I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation. Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to independent checks and balances – Pillay http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=... Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism – A New Communist Horizon http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-al... Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing. This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation for our future. Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have to do self. But never alone. Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social societies. State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this religion. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
Can commonification of cities and regions happen.... and then may it become the commonification of the State -which might meen simulateneoulsy dissolution of social power back into where it came from, the society? Here are some intriguining calls: Commons Josaphat http://commonsjosaphat.wordpress.com/ Let's win Barcelona: http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/guanyem-commons-barcelona/ Commune of Europe: http://www.thecommuneofeurope.org/ . What if .. we call all the cities of the world to commonify and then reunion as one undivided humanity, from bottom up pushing city governments, parties, nation states to turn into direct democratic p2p non-states.. The tricky point is how are you going to convince those who hold privileges over 'lower order', untrustworthy ordinary rank and file people. There are many of those elite actively benefiting from the existing power structures, and may be much less those who are wise and modest and who would pursue this goal by confronting the bad boys.. of course all of them as those of us outside are embedded in capitalist mode of production -the very base the existing power structure is relying dialectically. So multi scale deliberate counter creative and civil offensive to realize the transitions is needed in my opinion, so assertively and openly. So one person, or network of people, might be able to choose to engage, at one or more level. Declaring the end goal of stateless society to be realized from one by empowering the grassroots; setting check and balance protocols in their p2p communities themselves and ensuring that those protocols are working; then declaring that (Zapatista like) 'we don't want to hold any enclosed and un-socialised power, for people and make them do something we believe that it is good for them; yet we will try to work with those who are in the State in case they accept to collaborate with us in re-socializing the political power. So some kind of open p2p written charter, like a new wiki social civil contracts are needed indeed to justify any close engagement with non-p2p and anti-p2p structures. Since any currently power and wealth holding elite, his/her current 'being' is threatened (same as the feudal aristocracy felt threatened their 'being' by the bourgeoisie), by mass participation in social life, anyone need to realize the support of that kind of mass grassroots support. If we have a clear ruling class and power structures analyses at hand, context by context, next to our own open and p2p check and balance mechanisms for the networks, and wiki charters. then engaging enemy at various levels, getting support of those positive, critical and sincere elements active in those structures (like snowden) with varying, dynamic and harmonizable strategies. Such strategies should be very clearly and without compromise putting back all the commons; including labour, creative energy, and resources, back in grassroots' so that the self-empowerment of people is increasingly guaranteed. Just continuos brain storming.. Not beliefs, so very wide open to any critics Orsan
On 17 jul. 2014, at 18:44, willi uebelherr <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear friends,
on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on.
Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a ‘Partner State’, and lessons for future Commons Transition Strategies http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-par...
We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we have to bring this two language spaces together.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
--- Quiliro wrote
Great to see Michel’s and Willi’s great perspectives.
I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or stateful society against these abuses?
--- my answer
dear Quiliro and all,
your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to do for independence in our development of our life environment?
Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that.
I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation.
Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to independent checks and balances – Pillay http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=...
Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism – A New Communist Horizon http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-al...
Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing.
This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation for our future.
Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have to do self. But never alone.
Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social societies.
State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this religion.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
I definitely see Michel's Partner State as the state becoming more network-like and less statelike, and possibly an initial step toward Proudhon's idea of dissolving the state's functions into the social body. On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote:
Can commonification of cities and regions happen.... and then may it become the commonification of the State -which might meen simulateneoulsy dissolution of social power back into where it came from, the society?
Here are some intriguining calls:
Commons Josaphat MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com" claiming to be http://commonsjosaphat.wordpress.com/ Let's win Barcelona: MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com" claiming to be http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/guanyem-commons-barcelona/ Commune of Europe: MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com" claiming to be http://www.thecommuneofeurope.org/ . What if .. we call all the cities of the world to commonify and then reunion as one undivided humanity, from bottom up pushing city governments, parties, nation states to turn into direct democratic p2p non-states..
The tricky point is how are you going to convince those who hold privileges over 'lower order', untrustworthy ordinary rank and file people. There are many of those elite actively benefiting from the existing power structures, and may be much less those who are wise and modest and who would pursue this goal by confronting the bad boys.. of course all of them as those of us outside are embedded in capitalist mode of production -the very base the existing power structure is relying dialectically. So multi scale deliberate counter creative and civil offensive to realize the transitions is needed in my opinion, so assertively and openly.
So one person, or network of people, might be able to choose to engage, at one or more level. Declaring the end goal of stateless society to be realized from one by empowering the grassroots; setting check and balance protocols in their p2p communities themselves and ensuring that those protocols are working; then declaring that (Zapatista like) 'we don't want to hold any enclosed and un-socialised power, for people and make them do something we believe that it is good for them; yet we will try to work with those who are in the State in case they accept to collaborate with us in re-socializing the political power. So some kind of open p2p written charter, like a new wiki social civil contracts are needed indeed to justify any close engagement with non-p2p and anti-p2p structures.
Since any currently power and wealth holding elite, his/her current 'being' is threatened (same as the feudal aristocracy felt threatened their 'being' by the bourgeoisie), by mass participation in social life, anyone need to realize the support of that kind of mass grassroots support.
If we have a clear ruling class and power structures analyses at hand, context by context, next to our own open and p2p check and balance mechanisms for the networks, and wiki charters. then engaging enemy at various levels, getting support of those positive, critical and sincere elements active in those structures (like snowden) with varying, dynamic and harmonizable strategies.
Such strategies should be very clearly and without compromise putting back all the commons; including labour, creative energy, and resources, back in grassroots' so that the self-empowerment of people is increasingly guaranteed.
Just continuos brain storming.. Not beliefs, so very wide open to any critics
Orsan
On 17 jul. 2014, at 18:44, willi uebelherr <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear friends,
on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on.
Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a 'Partner State', and lessons for future Commons Transition Strategies http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-par...
We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we have to bring this two language spaces together.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
--- Quiliro wrote
Great to see Michel's and Willi's great perspectives.
I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or stateful society against these abuses?
--- my answer
dear Quiliro and all,
your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to do for independence in our development of our life environment?
Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that.
I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation.
Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to independent checks and balances - Pillay http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=...
Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism - A New Communist Horizon http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-al...
Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing.
This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation for our future.
Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have to do self. But never alone.
Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social societies.
State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this religion.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
Dear Orsan, many thanks for your answer. I read the texts to Commons Josaphat. And there i found a very interested link: Letchworth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letchworth For the writers of 'Commons Josaphat' it is very clear that we need our communal economy. And for that our communal technical infrastructure. You wrote: "... Declaring the end goal of stateless society to be realized from one by empowering the grassroots; ...". Yes, it have to be clear for us. Only then we can think about the ways, what we can go. We need the courage to rethink our future. In this process, we make no compromises. We act as the Quakers in Letchworth. We have to understand, what we need for our stable life environment in the local area. Then we can search our ways, that we can go to come in the vicinity of our perspectives. In my proposal to our global communication system, the Internet, the inter-connection of local networks, i follow the same principles. This free communication system derives from the connections of the local network. And this is always a independent task of the local people. With our food sovereignty we have to do the same. Also with our technical infrastrutures. But we see, that the most important task to do is our global communication system. Then we can realize: global thinking, local doing. And this can be everywhere on our small planet. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia Am 7/17/2014 1:35 PM, schrieb Orsan:
Can commonification of cities and regions happen.... and then may it become the commonification of the State -which might meen simulateneoulsy dissolution of social power back into where it came from, the society?
Here are some intriguining calls:
Commons Josaphat http://commonsjosaphat.wordpress.com/ Let's win Barcelona: http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/guanyem-commons-barcelona/ Commune of Europe: http://www.thecommuneofeurope.org/ . What if .. we call all the cities of the world to commonify and then reunion as one undivided humanity, from bottom up pushing city governments, parties, nation states to turn into direct democratic p2p non-states..
The tricky point is how are you going to convince those who hold privileges over 'lower order', untrustworthy ordinary rank and file people. There are many of those elite actively benefiting from the existing power structures, and may be much less those who are wise and modest and who would pursue this goal by confronting the bad boys.. of course all of them as those of us outside are embedded in capitalist mode of production -the very base the existing power structure is relying dialectically. So multi scale deliberate counter creative and civil offensive to realize the transitions is needed in my opinion, so assertively and openly.
So one person, or network of people, might be able to choose to engage, at one or more level. Declaring the end goal of stateless society to be realized from one by empowering the grassroots; setting check and balance protocols in their p2p communities themselves and ensuring that those protocols are working; then declaring that (Zapatista like) 'we don't want to hold any enclosed and un-socialised power, for people and make them do something we believe that it is good for them; yet we will try to work with those who are in the State in case they accept to collaborate with us in re-socializing the political power. So some kind of open p2p written charter, like a new wiki social civil contracts are needed indeed to justify any close engagement with non-p2p and anti-p2p structures.
Since any currently power and wealth holding elite, his/her current 'being' is threatened (same as the feudal aristocracy felt threatened their 'being' by the bourgeoisie), by mass participation in social life, anyone need to realize the support of that kind of mass grassroots support.
If we have a clear ruling class and power structures analyses at hand, context by context, next to our own open and p2p check and balance mechanisms for the networks, and wiki charters. then engaging enemy at various levels, getting support of those positive, critical and sincere elements active in those structures (like snowden) with varying, dynamic and harmonizable strategies.
Such strategies should be very clearly and without compromise putting back all the commons; including labour, creative energy, and resources, back in grassroots' so that the self-empowerment of people is increasingly guaranteed.
Just continuos brain storming.. Not beliefs, so very wide open to any critics
Orsan
participants (3)
-
Kevin Carson -
Orsan -
willi uebelherr