Re: [P2P-F] is p2p akin to anarchism
Dear Michael, is there any literature or ideas of how the basic income is necessarily, or not, related to centralized systems for its organisation and disbursement? See the remark by Sy below Michel On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Sy <[email protected]> wrote:
I think you're referring to the Speenhamland system - which wasn't a universal system (it was mainly limited to southern counties in England), was mandated by judges - part of a centralised and hierarchical system of lawmaking - and was paid by local parishes - ie it was managed and distributed local arm of another national, centralised and hierarchical structure, the Church of England.
I'm intrigued to hear of how you envisage a basic income system without some for of centralised apparatus to ensure that the income is universally available and equitably distributed.
I'm less convinced that a substantive difference exists between P2P theory and anarchism in that there needs to be reform (particularly in the formation of voluntary networks of self-aggregation which can fulfil roles currently undertaken by the state/market) before revolution. While there are currents of anarchist thought which call for the immediate destruction of the state, there are others which contend that networks based on mutual aid need to be created beforehand (Chomsky for example has regularly ridiculed anarchists who argue that we could transition into a stateless society today).
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Michael,
is there any literature or ideas of how the basic income is necessarily, or not, related to centralized systems for its organisation and disbursement?
Centralized systems are necessary when property law trumps human need. When "right to property" is made greater than "right to sleep", then income is necessary, because in order to sleep you have to "pay the man" somewhere. Basically a networked p2p system allows something greater than anarchy because it provides a catalyst to unite two always-appearing axiis: capitalism and communism. (there's an article at pangaia.sf.net called "capitalism vs. communism" that explores this.) In this way property law morphs into property stewardship. Hope that helps.... Mark
Centralized systems are necessary when property law trumps human need. When "right to property" is made greater than "right to sleep", then income is necessary, because in order to sleep you have to "pay the man" somewhere.
Also, FYI, I just got out of jail today for breaking a law stemming from this nation's property law. I have a court date set for April 28th, where I will argue for a human's right to sleep. This case has the potential to reform 200+ years of (often sordid) American history and to ripple across governments around the globe (look up "right to property" in wikipedia and you'll see that many countries make it a "human right"). I believe in the fundamental ideals of the United States (and that the decision to make a "right to property" was an experiment), but I don't have the resources (nor credibility) to work my way up to the "normal channels" in order to "change the system from within". I also believe that the threshold to the New Economy hinges around the issue of property rights. Any resources (U.S. Constitutional history, etc) that people have on the subject would be appreciated. Marcos
Mark, if you want to report on your legal case, we'd be happy to publish on the p2p blog, Michel On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 3:32 AM, Mark Janssen <[email protected]>wrote:
Centralized systems are necessary when property law trumps human need. When "right to property" is made greater than "right to sleep", then income is necessary, because in order to sleep you have to "pay the man" somewhere.
Also, FYI, I just got out of jail today for breaking a law stemming from this nation's property law. I have a court date set for April 28th, where I will argue for a human's right to sleep. This case has the potential to reform 200+ years of (often sordid) American history and to ripple across governments around the globe (look up "right to property" in wikipedia and you'll see that many countries make it a "human right").
I believe in the fundamental ideals of the United States (and that the decision to make a "right to property" was an experiment), but I don't have the resources (nor credibility) to work my way up to the "normal channels" in order to "change the system from within". I also believe that the threshold to the New Economy hinges around the issue of property rights.
Any resources (U.S. Constitutional history, etc) that people have on the subject would be appreciated.
Marcos
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Marvin Brown's http://p2pfoundation.net/Civilizing_the_Economy is also a sustained attempt to think beyond the primacy of property rigths, regarding basic income not necessarily requiring centralization, here is a system used by envangelicals (unfortunately discriminating regarding sexual orientation) that does seem to be able to distribute finance without recourse to a centralized administration, see http://p2pfoundation.net/Health-Care-Sharing_Ministries (Kat, just in case, any clarification on the above from the point of view of 'sabbath economics' could be useful) I also personally broadly agree that any p2p approach needs to 'transcend and include' a number of advantages of both market-based and non-market based (like socialism) approaches, Therefore, though we should honour historical attempts at human emancipation by previous social movements, an equation between p2p and anarchism is not advisabler Thanks for the pangaia link on the topic, I will explore Michel On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 3:13 AM, Mark Janssen <[email protected]>wrote:
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Michael,
is there any literature or ideas of how the basic income is necessarily, or not, related to centralized systems for its organisation and disbursement?
Centralized systems are necessary when property law trumps human need. When "right to property" is made greater than "right to sleep", then income is necessary, because in order to sleep you have to "pay the man" somewhere.
Basically a networked p2p system allows something greater than anarchy because it provides a catalyst to unite two always-appearing axiis: capitalism and communism. (there's an article at pangaia.sf.net called "capitalism vs. communism" that explores this.) In this way property law morphs into property stewardship.
Hope that helps....
Mark
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participants (2)
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Mark Janssen -
Michel Bauwens