Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] a short response to queries about the p2p'f workings in WSF
It was 3 years ago may be amongst all others things you do can't remember well; but what you offered was not a support to me, you offered me to be the 'labour person' of the foundation since there was no one intellectually and theory wise good enough at your network. My reply was after saying I appreciated a lot for the offer; was like this: 'for me it is more adequate to be independent from any group or institution, since I was active in autonomous movements' and I had my own projects to build. It was never about any doubt about your intentions or grand strategy to serve the enemy, consciously. What I do address from the beginning is the structural dynamical, political and ideological forces that are several steps ahead. And If there is any one (else then myself - since I know my self better then anyone else) I can trust in the capacity and creativity of being able to see the whole (also enemy grand strategy) and generate reversal perspective, that would have been you. But the networks you encounter, or chose to involve and engage, have put me in doubt several times about your genuine intention. Again, I never accused you or anyone; not even thought of you as CIA agent or anything like that. My doubt has been simply between if you, and others do what you or they do simply for your or their own gains or really for the objectives you or they claim to commit. This doubt is hard to proof but is totally different then what you suggest me to have about you / or others. That is why I would always read your (and others' work) writings, and benefit from them fully; but more then before I would prefer to stay in distance from any organic tie with you, thus the foundation, as I wouldn't with TNI, or similar NGOs, or trade unions, or political parties; where people are experts of appearing idealist and committed to cause while all they do best is to work for themselves as prior and promote them as good. At least, before I stop and out too, should I say i am happy to hear that your precarious days are over finally. Best, Orsan
On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:45, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
n fact, you will remember that in a period where most of us and myself included, were suffering from extreme precarity, we still wanted to engage in seeking support for your work ... that you found this offer offensive and proof that I was a rich CIA agent, is your prerogative .. but it also meant that from that moment on, while I would still dialogue, I would keep you with long pole away ...
ok one more time a factual correction .. Orsan was in desperate material traits and begged for material support, at that time, I was myself extremely precarious, just so people know what that means ... it ain't fun, I had a 3 month lecture tour with ashmatic bronchitis, but no cash for medicine nor to go a physician .. (luckily after a few weeks I arrive in Greece and got free medical help <g>) the p2p-f was not yet directly funded at all, but occasionally got access to research grants, so I proposed to Orsan, that he could assist with some coordination of monitoring the p2p/labor convergence, as I was doing for http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Labor, then he would become part of our contributory 'core' group, and if any grant opportunities came along, I would easily point them to him, and propose is collaboration in consortium's in which we would be a part .. ; this was the only way we could help people, and we have given work to two dozen researchers in that way, so it was also a realistic one, in the good tradition of 'no good deed ever goes unpunished', what I got in response was a sea of insults and accusations, that I was living a rich lifestyle, lying about my precarity, and that everybody knew that the p2p-f was a well-funded organisation ... This came at a very difficult moment for me, and did not go down well ... it was one thing to make sacrifices for some thing you believe in, it is quite another to get no recognition and even awful and unsupported allegations from some one you are trying to help... regular asphyxiating cough did not make it easier .. I can assure the people that the kind of accusations I got were several degrees more severe than what Orsan is accusing people in this list of .. This was the end of any trust I had in Orsan as an activist, but I decided not to make it public, and continue respectful dialogue, but this continuous stream of unsupported attacks makes my stomach turn, so once more, I announce I will stop reacting, until the next outrageous statement awakes the wrong reactive button <g> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> wrote:
It was 3 years ago may be amongst all others things you do can't remember well; but what you offered was not a support to me, you offered me to be the 'labour person' of the foundation since there was no one intellectually and theory wise good enough at your network.
My reply was after saying I appreciated a lot for the offer; was like this: 'for me it is more adequate to be independent from any group or institution, since I was active in autonomous movements' and I had my own projects to build.
It was never about any doubt about your intentions or grand strategy to serve the enemy, consciously. What I do address from the beginning is the structural dynamical, political and ideological forces that are several steps ahead. And If there is any one (else then myself - since I know my self better then anyone else) I can trust in the capacity and creativity of being able to see the whole (also enemy grand strategy) and generate reversal perspective, that would have been you. But the networks you encounter, or chose to involve and engage, have put me in doubt several times about your genuine intention.
Again, I never accused you or anyone; not even thought of you as CIA agent or anything like that. My doubt has been simply between if you, and others do what you or they do simply for your or their own gains or really for the objectives you or they claim to commit. This doubt is hard to proof but is totally different then what you suggest me to have about you / or others. That is why I would always read your (and others' work) writings, and benefit from them fully; but more then before I would prefer to stay in distance from any organic tie with you, thus the foundation, as I wouldn't with TNI, or similar NGOs, or trade unions, or political parties; where people are experts of appearing idealist and committed to cause while all they do best is to work for themselves as prior and promote them as good.
At least, before I stop and out too, should I say i am happy to hear that your precarious days are over finally.
Best,
Orsan
On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:45, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
n fact, you will remember that in a period where most of us and myself included, were suffering from extreme precarity, we still wanted to engage in seeking support for your work ... that you found this offer offensive and proof that I was a rich CIA agent, is your prerogative .. but it also meant that from that moment on, while I would still dialogue, I would keep you with long pole away ...
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
Michel, it is not a factual correction, it is a lie. And if you go down like this with hitting under belly, and with such disgusting lies, showing your real face, I would only hit back with reality and it would only be worse for you. Everyone who knows and watches you would feel this sneaky tone, for what life style you chose, and who would actually be bagging for something material from people. I am not like any others you discussed before in this tone publicly, and against all I defended you to some extent in the past. I would be careful if I were you.
On 16 aug. 2016, at 20:26, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
ok one more time a factual correction ..
Orsan was in desperate material traits and begged for material support,
at that time, I was myself extremely precarious, just so people know what that means ... it ain't fun, I had a 3 month lecture tour with ashmatic bronchitis, but no cash for medicine nor to go a physician .. (luckily after a few weeks I arrive in Greece and got free medical help <g>)
the p2p-f was not yet directly funded at all, but occasionally got access to research grants,
so I proposed to Orsan, that he could assist with some coordination of monitoring the p2p/labor convergence, as I was doing for http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Labor, then he would become part of our contributory 'core' group, and if any grant opportunities came along, I would easily point them to him, and propose is collaboration in consortium's in which we would be a part .. ; this was the only way we could help people, and we have given work to two dozen researchers in that way, so it was also a realistic one,
in the good tradition of 'no good deed ever goes unpunished', what I got in response was a sea of insults and accusations, that I was living a rich lifestyle, lying about my precarity, and that everybody knew that the p2p-f was a well-funded organisation ... This came at a very difficult moment for me, and did not go down well ... it was one thing to make sacrifices for some thing you believe in, it is quite another to get no recognition and even awful and unsupported allegations from some one you are trying to help... regular asphyxiating cough did not make it easier .. I can assure the people that the kind of accusations I got were several degrees more severe than what Orsan is accusing people in this list of ..
This was the end of any trust I had in Orsan as an activist, but I decided not to make it public, and continue respectful dialogue, but this continuous stream of unsupported attacks makes my stomach turn,
so once more, I announce I will stop reacting, until the next outrageous statement awakes the wrong reactive button <g>
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> wrote:
It was 3 years ago may be amongst all others things you do can't remember well; but what you offered was not a support to me, you offered me to be the 'labour person' of the foundation since there was no one intellectually and theory wise good enough at your network.
My reply was after saying I appreciated a lot for the offer; was like this: 'for me it is more adequate to be independent from any group or institution, since I was active in autonomous movements' and I had my own projects to build.
It was never about any doubt about your intentions or grand strategy to serve the enemy, consciously. What I do address from the beginning is the structural dynamical, political and ideological forces that are several steps ahead. And If there is any one (else then myself - since I know my self better then anyone else) I can trust in the capacity and creativity of being able to see the whole (also enemy grand strategy) and generate reversal perspective, that would have been you. But the networks you encounter, or chose to involve and engage, have put me in doubt several times about your genuine intention.
Again, I never accused you or anyone; not even thought of you as CIA agent or anything like that. My doubt has been simply between if you, and others do what you or they do simply for your or their own gains or really for the objectives you or they claim to commit. This doubt is hard to proof but is totally different then what you suggest me to have about you / or others. That is why I would always read your (and others' work) writings, and benefit from them fully; but more then before I would prefer to stay in distance from any organic tie with you, thus the foundation, as I wouldn't with TNI, or similar NGOs, or trade unions, or political parties; where people are experts of appearing idealist and committed to cause while all they do best is to work for themselves as prior and promote them as good.
At least, before I stop and out too, should I say i am happy to hear that your precarious days are over finally.
Best,
Orsan
On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:45, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
n fact, you will remember that in a period where most of us and myself included, were suffering from extreme precarity, we still wanted to engage in seeking support for your work ... that you found this offer offensive and proof that I was a rich CIA agent, is your prerogative .. but it also meant that from that moment on, while I would still dialogue, I would keep you with long pole away ...
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
I am ending any conversation with you Orsan, not because of your threats, but you are sucking an enormous amount of energy out of people who are all trying to do their best to make the world a better place, if you don't like people who gets things done, find a forum where you can critique others all day long, and get whatever pleasure you get out of this behaviour, but please pretty please, stop doing this here, I am totally done, On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 2:51 AM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote:
Michel, it is not a factual correction, it is a lie. And if you go down like this with hitting under belly, and with such disgusting lies, showing your real face, I would only hit back with reality and it would only be worse for you. Everyone who knows and watches you would feel this sneaky tone, for what life style you chose, and who would actually be bagging for something material from people. I am not like any others you discussed before in this tone publicly, and against all I defended you to some extent in the past. I would be careful if I were you.
On 16 aug. 2016, at 20:26, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
ok one more time a factual correction ..
Orsan was in desperate material traits and begged for material support,
at that time, I was myself extremely precarious, just so people know what that means ... it ain't fun, I had a 3 month lecture tour with ashmatic bronchitis, but no cash for medicine nor to go a physician .. (luckily after a few weeks I arrive in Greece and got free medical help <g>)
the p2p-f was not yet directly funded at all, but occasionally got access to research grants,
so I proposed to Orsan, that he could assist with some coordination of monitoring the p2p/labor convergence, as I was doing for http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Labor, then he would become part of our contributory 'core' group, and if any grant opportunities came along, I would easily point them to him, and propose is collaboration in consortium's in which we would be a part .. ; this was the only way we could help people, and we have given work to two dozen researchers in that way, so it was also a realistic one,
in the good tradition of 'no good deed ever goes unpunished', what I got in response was a sea of insults and accusations, that I was living a rich lifestyle, lying about my precarity, and that everybody knew that the p2p-f was a well-funded organisation ... This came at a very difficult moment for me, and did not go down well ... it was one thing to make sacrifices for some thing you believe in, it is quite another to get no recognition and even awful and unsupported allegations from some one you are trying to help... regular asphyxiating cough did not make it easier .. I can assure the people that the kind of accusations I got were several degrees more severe than what Orsan is accusing people in this list of ..
This was the end of any trust I had in Orsan as an activist, but I decided not to make it public, and continue respectful dialogue, but this continuous stream of unsupported attacks makes my stomach turn,
so once more, I announce I will stop reacting, until the next outrageous statement awakes the wrong reactive button <g>
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> wrote:
It was 3 years ago may be amongst all others things you do can't remember well; but what you offered was not a support to me, you offered me to be the 'labour person' of the foundation since there was no one intellectually and theory wise good enough at your network.
My reply was after saying I appreciated a lot for the offer; was like this: 'for me it is more adequate to be independent from any group or institution, since I was active in autonomous movements' and I had my own projects to build.
It was never about any doubt about your intentions or grand strategy to serve the enemy, consciously. What I do address from the beginning is the structural dynamical, political and ideological forces that are several steps ahead. And If there is any one (else then myself - since I know my self better then anyone else) I can trust in the capacity and creativity of being able to see the whole (also enemy grand strategy) and generate reversal perspective, that would have been you. But the networks you encounter, or chose to involve and engage, have put me in doubt several times about your genuine intention.
Again, I never accused you or anyone; not even thought of you as CIA agent or anything like that. My doubt has been simply between if you, and others do what you or they do simply for your or their own gains or really for the objectives you or they claim to commit. This doubt is hard to proof but is totally different then what you suggest me to have about you / or others. That is why I would always read your (and others' work) writings, and benefit from them fully; but more then before I would prefer to stay in distance from any organic tie with you, thus the foundation, as I wouldn't with TNI, or similar NGOs, or trade unions, or political parties; where people are experts of appearing idealist and committed to cause while all they do best is to work for themselves as prior and promote them as good.
At least, before I stop and out too, should I say i am happy to hear that your precarious days are over finally.
Best,
Orsan
On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:45, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
n fact, you will remember that in a period where most of us and myself included, were suffering from extreme precarity, we still wanted to engage in seeking support for your work ... that you found this offer offensive and proof that I was a rich CIA agent, is your prerogative .. but it also meant that from that moment on, while I would still dialogue, I would keep you with long pole away ...
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
I accept that communication wise this is absurd not heathy etc. but the politics of you guys has been performing since 2007-2008 crises taking the world down, driving me crazy. TNI, CEO, you, your power network, European Left, .. while you guys are talking about 'new politics' 'new economy', 'new system', commons, p2p all the time, hypocritically your daily life and real world is ruled by old economics, old politics, old system; trying to capture commanding heights of the movements; harvesting most prominent activists from the new movements; all same shit.. Have been waiting for almost 10 years to see any small sign... There is almost no sign of new culture or prefiguration, negative. I told others just before that I don't keep doing this; nor wait for any self-critical p2pish response, nor any meaningful contribution to positive social change anymore, nothing else then increasing quality in your own social environment and social relations which would be measured best with 'old value' systems. I just resigned from networked labour list admin, and leaving these list subscriptions as well. In few years time reality will talk for itself. Since then I expect radical change coming from out of these circles; which actually sucks all the energy of the people that are really doing somethings hard to make the world better place. Not in paper or speeches, of people who doesn't wants anything else then to be famous and economically okay. Good luck. Orsan
On 17 aug. 2016, at 10:52, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I am ending any conversation with you Orsan, not because of your threats, but you are sucking an enormous amount of energy out of people who are all trying to do their best to make the world a better place,
if you don't like people who gets things done, find a forum where you can critique others all day long, and get whatever pleasure you get out of this behaviour, but please pretty please, stop doing this here,
I am totally done,
On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 2:51 AM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote:
Michel, it is not a factual correction, it is a lie. And if you go down like this with hitting under belly, and with such disgusting lies, showing your real face, I would only hit back with reality and it would only be worse for you. Everyone who knows and watches you would feel this sneaky tone, for what life style you chose, and who would actually be bagging for something material from people. I am not like any others you discussed before in this tone publicly, and against all I defended you to some extent in the past. I would be careful if I were you.
On 16 aug. 2016, at 20:26, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
ok one more time a factual correction ..
Orsan was in desperate material traits and begged for material support,
at that time, I was myself extremely precarious, just so people know what that means ... it ain't fun, I had a 3 month lecture tour with ashmatic bronchitis, but no cash for medicine nor to go a physician .. (luckily after a few weeks I arrive in Greece and got free medical help <g>)
the p2p-f was not yet directly funded at all, but occasionally got access to research grants,
so I proposed to Orsan, that he could assist with some coordination of monitoring the p2p/labor convergence, as I was doing for http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Labor, then he would become part of our contributory 'core' group, and if any grant opportunities came along, I would easily point them to him, and propose is collaboration in consortium's in which we would be a part .. ; this was the only way we could help people, and we have given work to two dozen researchers in that way, so it was also a realistic one,
in the good tradition of 'no good deed ever goes unpunished', what I got in response was a sea of insults and accusations, that I was living a rich lifestyle, lying about my precarity, and that everybody knew that the p2p-f was a well-funded organisation ... This came at a very difficult moment for me, and did not go down well ... it was one thing to make sacrifices for some thing you believe in, it is quite another to get no recognition and even awful and unsupported allegations from some one you are trying to help... regular asphyxiating cough did not make it easier .. I can assure the people that the kind of accusations I got were several degrees more severe than what Orsan is accusing people in this list of ..
This was the end of any trust I had in Orsan as an activist, but I decided not to make it public, and continue respectful dialogue, but this continuous stream of unsupported attacks makes my stomach turn,
so once more, I announce I will stop reacting, until the next outrageous statement awakes the wrong reactive button <g>
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> wrote:
It was 3 years ago may be amongst all others things you do can't remember well; but what you offered was not a support to me, you offered me to be the 'labour person' of the foundation since there was no one intellectually and theory wise good enough at your network.
My reply was after saying I appreciated a lot for the offer; was like this: 'for me it is more adequate to be independent from any group or institution, since I was active in autonomous movements' and I had my own projects to build.
It was never about any doubt about your intentions or grand strategy to serve the enemy, consciously. What I do address from the beginning is the structural dynamical, political and ideological forces that are several steps ahead. And If there is any one (else then myself - since I know my self better then anyone else) I can trust in the capacity and creativity of being able to see the whole (also enemy grand strategy) and generate reversal perspective, that would have been you. But the networks you encounter, or chose to involve and engage, have put me in doubt several times about your genuine intention.
Again, I never accused you or anyone; not even thought of you as CIA agent or anything like that. My doubt has been simply between if you, and others do what you or they do simply for your or their own gains or really for the objectives you or they claim to commit. This doubt is hard to proof but is totally different then what you suggest me to have about you / or others. That is why I would always read your (and others' work) writings, and benefit from them fully; but more then before I would prefer to stay in distance from any organic tie with you, thus the foundation, as I wouldn't with TNI, or similar NGOs, or trade unions, or political parties; where people are experts of appearing idealist and committed to cause while all they do best is to work for themselves as prior and promote them as good.
At least, before I stop and out too, should I say i am happy to hear that your precarious days are over finally.
Best,
Orsan
On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:45, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
n fact, you will remember that in a period where most of us and myself included, were suffering from extreme precarity, we still wanted to engage in seeking support for your work ... that you found this offer offensive and proof that I was a rich CIA agent, is your prerogative .. but it also meant that from that moment on, while I would still dialogue, I would keep you with long pole away ...
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
Orsan, I think I understand your reluctance to be part of an organisation. There is a saying from a Sufi called Al Niffari : 'every form has a tendency to self perpetuation in it'. It is inevitable that members of an organisation feel a loyalty towards it. I rejoined the Labour Party because I wanted to vote for Corbyn, but I have now left again. It is clear to me that loyalty to the party influences how people think and act. They are no longer free. But this is a personal choice. Organisations also accomplish a lot. The name, the label, signifies something. What you cannot do is try to separate how much people are 'in it for themselves', and how much they genuinely want to promote 'global emancipation', or whatever you want to call it. These things cannot be separated, or judged by some external standard, like funding. Is there any area where money is not involved? Is there any money which is not tainted? I would guess there is always some ego involved, so what? Maybe you feel wronged in some way. Maybe you have a genuine grievance. Your resentment is your own problem, you do not help your cause by trying to get others to apologise. Get over it! Anna
On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:29, Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> wrote:
It was 3 years ago may be amongst all others things you do can't remember well; but what you offered was not a support to me, you offered me to be the 'labour person' of the foundation since there was no one intellectually and theory wise good enough at your network.
My reply was after saying I appreciated a lot for the offer; was like this: 'for me it is more adequate to be independent from any group or institution, since I was active in autonomous movements' and I had my own projects to build.
It was never about any doubt about your intentions or grand strategy to serve the enemy, consciously. What I do address from the beginning is the structural dynamical, political and ideological forces that are several steps ahead. And If there is any one (else then myself - since I know my self better then anyone else) I can trust in the capacity and creativity of being able to see the whole (also enemy grand strategy) and generate reversal perspective, that would have been you. But the networks you encounter, or chose to involve and engage, have put me in doubt several times about your genuine intention.
Again, I never accused you or anyone; not even thought of you as CIA agent or anything like that. My doubt has been simply between if you, and others do what you or they do simply for your or their own gains or really for the objectives you or they claim to commit. This doubt is hard to proof but is totally different then what you suggest me to have about you / or others. That is why I would always read your (and others' work) writings, and benefit from them fully; but more then before I would prefer to stay in distance from any organic tie with you, thus the foundation, as I wouldn't with TNI, or similar NGOs, or trade unions, or political parties; where people are experts of appearing idealist and committed to cause while all they do best is to work for themselves as prior and promote them as good.
At least, before I stop and out too, should I say i am happy to hear that your precarious days are over finally.
Best,
Orsan
On 16 Aug 2016, at 14:45, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
n fact, you will remember that in a period where most of us and myself included, were suffering from extreme precarity, we still wanted to engage in seeking support for your work ... that you found this offer offensive and proof that I was a rich CIA agent, is your prerogative .. but it also meant that from that moment on, while I would still dialogue, I would keep you with long pole away ...
NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
participants (4)
-
Anna Harris -
Michel Bauwens -
Orsan -
Orsan Senalp