Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] our p2p/commons contribution to Journey to Earthland (GTN Discussion) (Michel Bauwens)
I am not clear what you both mean by "idealisation". My intention was not to idealise tribal cultures, but nevertheless there is much that we can learn from them, particularly as regards to birth practices. The tribal groups studied were specifically small band hunter gatherers, not tribal cultures in general. And the point is to take what is good, not import wholesale. The evidence is based on recent neurobiological research, not social history. The recent protest at Standing Rock also shows a "tribal" understanding of the importance of natural resources which western cultures can treat with breathtaking ignorance. But I must take objection to the idea that "Military training is now for volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not nearly as generalized as they once were". War is a constant part of our lives, and military expenditure is increasing not decreasing. That in itself reveals a general de-sensitising towards wholesale destruction of people and planet. Many still enter the military because it's the only job open to them without qualifications, and they are treated as heroes. If a newborn experiences the world as a hostile place, everything that comes after is fitted into that paradigm, unless much work is done to counteract that impression. It will also affect the neurobiological development of the newborn, in damaging ways that are difficult to reverse. That is why I am emphasising the need to focus on that entry point, to ensure that as far as possible, the experience of the newborn is tenderly loving and sensitively cared for. Leading hopefully to the conclusion of Michel's last paragraph, with which I strongly agree.
On 6 Nov 2016, at 10:24, peter waterman <[email protected]> wrote:
A good argument, I think, Michel, especially since it has more general implications for facile references to 'el buen vivir' or 'ubuntu'.
I make such references myself but by 'facile' I mean an idealisation of the pre-capitalist, pre-class, non-western, society. Such references might serve as useful sticks with which to batter idealised/essentialised Western civilisation/culture, but they hardly help us to dialogue either with such tiny/isolated autonomous formations as might still exist, even less to relate to contemporary indigenous communities, deeply affected by consumer fetishism, equipped with cellphones, and taking action on their own behalves in manners that require (self-)reflection.
P
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: There is much evidence to show that competitiveness and anxiety traits, built in to our modern birth and child rearing practices, support the trend towards violence in later life. The lack of care at this crucial point in life, sets the tone for later states of dissociation which allow military personnel to destroy other human beings without compunction, as well as the general lack of connection with the natural environment on which we all depend.
so first a general remark of your critique. I guess I'm an integrative-structuralist, which means that what you suggest is part of my approach, and is well documented on our wiki, but, in this contribution, I focus on the structural necessity of the commons/caring shift, which is inevitably linked to the underlying psycho-bodily-relational structures.
But this being said, I can't agree with the idealization of the paragraph. We actually now know that tribal cultures were <more> violent than state-based systems, not less, and that the attachment parenting (which is good, and I have practiced largely with my children, but especially the last two), was inextricably linked to the desensitization produced by the male initiation rituals.
Reading the the Institute of Psycho-History, and especially their very well-document 'History of Child Abuse", is very instructive. In fact, we have now a unprecedented number of children who have been education through democratic and respectful parenting, and they are the ones driving the peer to peer/ commons / collaborative culture we draw on. Military training is now for volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not nearly as generalized as they once were.
There are of course huge pockets of the population (say the Trump voters, and the books of George Makoff), where authoritarian education continues to be the norm, and produces authoritarian personalities. And the migration of countries where such repressive practices are still the norm, create additional problems (it's the rural migration from Anatolia which overwhelmed the secular state in Turkey).
So we should continue to build on the huge cultural shifts set in motion by the 1968 revolts, which were politically defeated, but did put in motion changes we can built on.
But of course, I am in agreement that there are still important amounts of dis-sociation going on in our child-bearing and child-rearing practices ... and that these need to be changed, (taking babies away from their mothers as soon as they are born, sleeping in different rooms with anxiety provoking baby phones, childcare in anonymous and bureaucratic institutions too early in life)
I also agree we should be re-creating the positive effects of more collective child-rearing in renewed community setings ..
I have been blessed by living the last 12 years in Thailand, where unlike my experience in Belgium, both caring for my kids , and caring for my Alzheimer-afflicted mother, was 'easy', because of the support of the extended family.
But let's not forget, thai society is also hyper-authoritarian and violent, much more than ours, and this is because , 'from 1 to 7, treat your children as kings, from 7 to 14, treat them as slaves, from 14 to 21, treat them as friends'
In other words, as I said in the beginning, the attachment parenting is replaced with very authoritarian education in the school system.,
It leads to a society where you dearly love your (extended) family, but deeply mistrust anyone outside ... This is what civic societies have changed, by extending 'love' to a more broader scope, though still limited to the imaginary community of the nation; part of the next phase, is to create successful trans-national neo-tribes, firmly rooted in networks of physical places, that ca form the basis of an extension of that 'love' to humanity as a whole,
Michel
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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dear Anna, I fully agree with your perspective and conclusions here, and that we must learn from the good practices of societies before our own, and one's that exist today with better child-rearing practices .. here are some historical trends on military spending though; it is my understanding that for many western european countries, military spending is down in relative terms, but I checked the UK which is more militaristic than most, it seems down there as well, see 'historical perspectives' here at https://ourworldindata.org/military-spending/ nevertheless with the increasing social and ecological crisis, social instability is again in the air, and it is not at all impossible to see increasing re-armament trends, Michel On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
I am not clear what you both mean by "idealisation". My intention was not to idealise tribal cultures, but nevertheless there is much that we can learn from them, particularly as regards to birth practices. The tribal groups studied were specifically small band hunter gatherers, not tribal cultures in general. And the point is to take what is good, not import wholesale. The evidence is based on recent neurobiological research, not social history.
The recent protest at Standing Rock also shows a "tribal" understanding of the importance of natural resources which western cultures can treat with breathtaking ignorance.
But I must take objection to the idea that "Military training is now for volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not nearly as generalized as they once were". War is a constant part of our lives, and military expenditure is increasing not decreasing. That in itself reveals a general de-sensitising towards wholesale destruction of people and planet. Many still enter the military because it's the only job open to them without qualifications, and they are treated as heroes.
If a newborn experiences the world as a hostile place, everything that comes after is fitted into that paradigm, unless much work is done to counteract that impression. It will also affect the neurobiological development of the newborn, in damaging ways that are difficult to reverse. That is why I am emphasising the need to focus on that entry point, to ensure that as far as possible, the experience of the newborn is tenderly loving and sensitively cared for. Leading hopefully to the conclusion of Michel's last paragraph, with which I strongly agree.
On 6 Nov 2016, at 10:24, peter waterman <[email protected]> wrote:
A good argument, I think, Michel, especially since it has more general implications for facile references to 'el buen vivir' or 'ubuntu'.
I make such references myself but by 'facile' I mean an idealisation of the pre-capitalist, pre-class, non-western, society. Such references might serve as useful sticks with which to batter idealised/essentialised Western civilisation/culture, but they hardly help us to dialogue either with such tiny/isolated autonomous formations as might still exist, even less to relate to contemporary indigenous communities, deeply affected by consumer fetishism, equipped with cellphones, and taking action on their own behalves in manners that require (self-)reflection.
P
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
There is much evidence to show that competitiveness and anxiety traits, built in to our modern birth and child rearing practices, support the trend towards violence in later life. The lack of care at this crucial point in life, sets the tone for later states of dissociation which allow military personnel to destroy other human beings without compunction, as well as the general lack of connection with the natural environment on which we all depend.
so first a general remark of your critique. I guess I'm an integrative-structuralist, which means that what you suggest is part of my approach, and is well documented on our wiki, but, in this contribution, I focus on the structural necessity of the commons/caring shift, which is inevitably linked to the underlying psycho-bodily-relational structures.
But this being said, I can't agree with the idealization of the paragraph. We actually now know that tribal cultures were <more> violent than state-based systems, not less, and that the attachment parenting (which is good, and I have practiced largely with my children, but especially the last two), was inextricably linked to the desensitization produced by the male initiation rituals.
Reading the the Institute of Psycho-History, and especially their very well-document 'History of Child Abuse", is very instructive. In fact, we have now a unprecedented number of children who have been education through democratic and respectful parenting, and they are the ones driving the peer to peer/ commons / collaborative culture we draw on. Military training is now for volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not nearly as generalized as they once were.
There are of course huge pockets of the population (say the Trump voters, and the books of George Makoff), where authoritarian education continues to be the norm, and produces authoritarian personalities. And the migration of countries where such repressive practices are still the norm, create additional problems (it's the rural migration from Anatolia which overwhelmed the secular state in Turkey).
So we should continue to build on the huge cultural shifts set in motion by the 1968 revolts, which were politically defeated, but did put in motion changes we can built on.
But of course, I am in agreement that there are still important amounts of dis-sociation going on in our child-bearing and child-rearing practices ... and that these need to be changed, (taking babies away from their mothers as soon as they are born, sleeping in different rooms with anxiety provoking baby phones, childcare in anonymous and bureaucratic institutions too early in life)
I also agree we should be re-creating the positive effects of more collective child-rearing in renewed community setings ..
I have been blessed by living the last 12 years in Thailand, where unlike my experience in Belgium, both caring for my kids , and caring for my Alzheimer-afflicted mother, was 'easy', because of the support of the extended family.
But let's not forget, thai society is also hyper-authoritarian and violent, much more than ours, and this is because , 'from 1 to 7, treat your children as kings, from 7 to 14, treat them as slaves, from 14 to 21, treat them as friends'
In other words, as I said in the beginning, the attachment parenting is replaced with very authoritarian education in the school system.,
It leads to a society where you dearly love your (extended) family, but deeply mistrust anyone outside ... This is what civic societies have changed, by extending 'love' to a more broader scope, though still limited to the imaginary community of the nation; part of the next phase, is to create successful trans-national neo-tribes, firmly rooted in networks of physical places, that ca form the basis of an extension of that 'love' to humanity as a whole,
Michel
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
_______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- *Click here for Peter's recent writings* <https://www.dropbox.com/s/o8s52g2y905rq6w/WatermanGmailSignaturePanel%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20Updated.docx?dl=0>
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
Military spending is notoriously difficult to observe accurately. However manufactured arms is a better assessment than official defence spending. "According to research institute, SIPRI, the volume of international transfers of major weapons in 2010–14 was 16 per cent higher than in 2005–2009. The five biggest exporters in 2010–14 were the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, China and France, and the five biggest importers were India, Saudi Arabia, China, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Pakistan. The flow of arms to Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, and the Middle East increased significantly between 2005–2009 and 2010–14, while there was a notable decrease in the flow to Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry When we think of violence being an acceptable part of our daily lives, and the dissociation which this requires, this is more than just numbers however. It is to do with reporting violent crimes, violence in entertainment, video games. It is to do with emotions still being seen as having no part in scientific discourse. There are many aspects of this which result in people accepting soul destroying jobs, increases in anxiety and depression etc. Basically not valuing life. The foundation for all this is set at birth. It may seem incongruous to introduce babies into a discussion about structural economic transformation. But unless we address those first experiences of a baby's life, it is my belief that we will not be able to shift the power play which dominates all our lives. Anna
On 6 Nov 2016, at 13:07, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
dear Anna,
I fully agree with your perspective and conclusions here, and that we must learn from the good practices of societies before our own, and one's that exist today with better child-rearing practices ..
here are some historical trends on military spending though; it is my understanding that for many western european countries, military spending is down in relative terms, but I checked the UK which is more militaristic than most, it seems down there as well, see 'historical perspectives' here at https://ourworldindata.org/military-spending/
nevertheless with the increasing social and ecological crisis, social instability is again in the air, and it is not at all impossible to see increasing re-armament trends,
Michel
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: I am not clear what you both mean by "idealisation". My intention was not to idealise tribal cultures, but nevertheless there is much that we can learn from them, particularly as regards to birth practices. The tribal groups studied were specifically small band hunter gatherers, not tribal cultures in general. And the point is to take what is good, not import wholesale. The evidence is based on recent neurobiological research, not social history.
The recent protest at Standing Rock also shows a "tribal" understanding of the importance of natural resources which western cultures can treat with breathtaking ignorance.
But I must take objection to the idea that "Military training is now for volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not nearly as generalized as they once were". War is a constant part of our lives, and military expenditure is increasing not decreasing. That in itself reveals a general de-sensitising towards wholesale destruction of people and planet. Many still enter the military because it's the only job open to them without qualifications, and they are treated as heroes.
If a newborn experiences the world as a hostile place, everything that comes after is fitted into that paradigm, unless much work is done to counteract that impression. It will also affect the neurobiological development of the newborn, in damaging ways that are difficult to reverse. That is why I am emphasising the need to focus on that entry point, to ensure that as far as possible, the experience of the newborn is tenderly loving and sensitively cared for. Leading hopefully to the conclusion of Michel's last paragraph, with which I strongly agree.
On 6 Nov 2016, at 10:24, peter waterman <[email protected]> wrote:
A good argument, I think, Michel, especially since it has more general implications for facile references to 'el buen vivir' or 'ubuntu'.
I make such references myself but by 'facile' I mean an idealisation of the pre-capitalist, pre-class, non-western, society. Such references might serve as useful sticks with which to batter idealised/essentialised Western civilisation/culture, but they hardly help us to dialogue either with such tiny/isolated autonomous formations as might still exist, even less to relate to contemporary indigenous communities, deeply affected by consumer fetishism, equipped with cellphones, and taking action on their own behalves in manners that require (self-)reflection.
P
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: There is much evidence to show that competitiveness and anxiety traits, built in to our modern birth and child rearing practices, support the trend towards violence in later life. The lack of care at this crucial point in life, sets the tone for later states of dissociation which allow military personnel to destroy other human beings without compunction, as well as the general lack of connection with the natural environment on which we all depend.
so first a general remark of your critique. I guess I'm an integrative-structuralist, which means that what you suggest is part of my approach, and is well documented on our wiki, but, in this contribution, I focus on the structural necessity of the commons/caring shift, which is inevitably linked to the underlying psycho-bodily-relational structures.
But this being said, I can't agree with the idealization of the paragraph. We actually now know that tribal cultures were <more> violent than state-based systems, not less, and that the attachment parenting (which is good, and I have practiced largely with my children, but especially the last two), was inextricably linked to the desensitization produced by the male initiation rituals.
Reading the the Institute of Psycho-History, and especially their very well-document 'History of Child Abuse", is very instructive. In fact, we have now a unprecedented number of children who have been education through democratic and respectful parenting, and they are the ones driving the peer to peer/ commons / collaborative culture we draw on. Military training is now for volunteer professionals, and the kind of de-sensitizing practices are not nearly as generalized as they once were.
There are of course huge pockets of the population (say the Trump voters, and the books of George Makoff), where authoritarian education continues to be the norm, and produces authoritarian personalities. And the migration of countries where such repressive practices are still the norm, create additional problems (it's the rural migration from Anatolia which overwhelmed the secular state in Turkey).
So we should continue to build on the huge cultural shifts set in motion by the 1968 revolts, which were politically defeated, but did put in motion changes we can built on.
But of course, I am in agreement that there are still important amounts of dis-sociation going on in our child-bearing and child-rearing practices ... and that these need to be changed, (taking babies away from their mothers as soon as they are born, sleeping in different rooms with anxiety provoking baby phones, childcare in anonymous and bureaucratic institutions too early in life)
I also agree we should be re-creating the positive effects of more collective child-rearing in renewed community setings ..
I have been blessed by living the last 12 years in Thailand, where unlike my experience in Belgium, both caring for my kids , and caring for my Alzheimer-afflicted mother, was 'easy', because of the support of the extended family.
But let's not forget, thai society is also hyper-authoritarian and violent, much more than ours, and this is because , 'from 1 to 7, treat your children as kings, from 7 to 14, treat them as slaves, from 14 to 21, treat them as friends'
In other words, as I said in the beginning, the attachment parenting is replaced with very authoritarian education in the school system.,
It leads to a society where you dearly love your (extended) family, but deeply mistrust anyone outside ... This is what civic societies have changed, by extending 'love' to a more broader scope, though still limited to the imaginary community of the nation; part of the next phase, is to create successful trans-national neo-tribes, firmly rooted in networks of physical places, that ca form the basis of an extension of that 'love' to humanity as a whole,
Michel
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
_______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- Click here for Peter's recent writings
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
The foundation for all this is set at birth. It may seem incongruous to introduce babies into a discussion about structural economic transformation. But unless we address those first experiences of a baby's life, it is my belief that we will not be able to shift the power play which dominates all our lives.
but these children will grow up, and face all the structural limitations, repression, as well as the psychological resistance of those not similarly educated/nurtured so, foundation set at birth, obviously a good thing, but structural economic transformation, just as necessary the first wave of babies so educated in massive numbers, from parents who have gone through massive amounts of trauma processing, is already here, and they are the ones creating and sustaining collaborative culture, but they're not gonna make it, just by doing their own thing -- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
participants (2)
-
Anna Harris -
Michel Bauwens