I think Peter and Michel pointed this, I am tended to agree - I see those activists, also ex-NGO / union / project experts as unemployed or precarious workers who could benefit by liberating time to peruse activism or radical organizing.

On 10 Aug 2016, at 17:22, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote:

I can't remember who mentioned this in this fascinating conversation, but I would like to concede one other point to those arguing against UBI: that some of the people pushing it are PB activists who have precarious incomes and want it to support their activism.

To be upfront, that is one (but not the only) reason that I like UBI. We don't need it ourselves, we live on US social security that was extracted from our past paychecks. But that functions for us as a basic income and we can devote fulltime to trying to aid the transformation to a better economic system.

My background is peasant and working-class, but I have class-climbed a bit by making my living after about age 35 as a self-taught computer programmer and part-time activist. But we have many friends who could do a lot more activism if they had some income.

I think this is related to Peter's pro-UBI argument about an opening.

On the other hand, I don't foresee UBI in the US in any near or mid-term future. Another reason that, while this is a fascinating discussion, I am not personally involved in the outcome.

...

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote:

:) Dymtri you have thrown a good stone in the water, we try to take it out, but nice discus sion indeed.

To go back to Peter's, Michel's and Ursula's points, I think if left or progressive forces could bring it forward as part of a broader program; including universal social public services, shorter (4 hours) work day, legitimate alternative currencies, so on so forth and linked to alternative mode of production (I call it transnational-value-unchains) universal income can play a good and even rEvolutionary role. Solely and if it would substitute public services, and legitimize global slavery regime, of course left neoliberals would love this happening. If every one agrees with this there seems to be no disagreement at all among all different participants to this exchange? I wonder if there is anyone would be supporting only UBI without universal social - Free public services?

Orsan

On 10 aug. 2016, at 16:35, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:

hi Dmytri,

obviously I use another logic

my logic is

some of the people who advance UBI have a neoliberal agenda (including the neoliberal left as suggested by TD)

that doesn't prove that most of the UBI tradition and proponents have that agenda (that is in my view, certainly disproven)

now of course I am very interested in a bibliography that proves that some of the neoliberals who support UBI are involved in a plot, and I hope you can provide it, it would be very interesting for us all

but that would of course not prove your claim,

your claim to be true would have to prove that other propositions for a UBI do not exist, and a knowledge of the future that the majority of proponents would loose out in any conflict

this is also a prediction that you know in advance how the social struggle (or class struggle) would end, and in way that is discontinuous with the history of social advances in the past (where social advances where the result of long struggles, massive mobilizations, compromises, and the self-preservation logics of capital)

I'm not arguing of course that these advances were unilateral victories, I am only arguing that they were not total victories and plots for capital

you have a lot more to prove in that text, for example that a basic income is incompatible with a basic outcome ...

I don't mind speculation at all, but when speculation is couched in the language of absolute certainty, then it requires a lot of proof ..

as they say, extraordinary proof requires extraordinary evidence

but I welcome very much the documentation on the neoliberal side of the debate,

Michel

...

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Dmytri Kleiner <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On , Michel Bauwens wrote:

the polls suggest that the idea that the UBI is a neoliberal plot is empirically false,

at the most you could say that some of the proposals of UBI may come from neoliberal circles as well

It is empirically certain that UBI is a neoliberal plot, we have the documents to prove it.

Please try to understand that the fact that other people also support UBI, who are not part of this plot, is not proof against.

Logic! Use it!

Cheers.

-- Dmytri Kleiner

http://dmytri.info @dmytri

-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

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