From: Chris Nelson Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare, isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and never implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North America were entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion, not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the federal government was administering them), but they were hardly concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive: plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more brutality than we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not routinely enslave and torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable dent. -----"Natalie Golovin" <[email protected]> wrote: ----- To: "Chris Nelson" <[email protected]> From: "Natalie Golovin" <[email protected]> Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM Subject: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info Hi Nalatie, I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression. Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place. Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression. Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions. Michel On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open? On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote: > Agreed-that was easy. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Carson > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM > To: P2P Foundation mailing list > Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> > wrote: >> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of >> interplay >> among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup >> religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical >> knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. >> I >> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The >> interactions >> were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big >> exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants >> interacted >> very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about >> when economic& political forces join hands. > > Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead > vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. > What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property > of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, > wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to > homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need > (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical > exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually > amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- > I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using > vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native > citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican > national might like to move onto. > >> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard >> Left >> friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about >> school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls >> value >> family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's >> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& >> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods. > > I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone > would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls > like that into having abortions against their own judgment or > inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the > world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day > and minded their own goddamned business. > -- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation =
Referring to a film by Mel Gibson! On 24/10/11 14:30, Natalie Golovin wrote:
From: Chris Nelson Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare, isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and never implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North America were entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion, not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the federal government was administering them), but they were hardly concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive: plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more brutality than we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not routinely enslave and torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable dent.
-----"Natalie Golovin"<[email protected]> wrote: ----- To: "Chris Nelson"<[email protected]> From: "Natalie Golovin"<[email protected]> Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM Subject: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.
From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th& 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power& powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
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Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
The reference was so that you juveniles would have some Hollywood reference point you could understand. -----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Fw: Info Referring to a film by Mel Gibson! On 24/10/11 14:30, Natalie Golovin wrote:
From: Chris Nelson Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare, isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and never implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North America were entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion, not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the federal government was administering them), but they were hardly concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive: plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more brutality than we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not routinely enslave and torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable dent.
-----"Natalie Golovin"<[email protected]> wrote: ----- To: "Chris Nelson"<[email protected]> From: "Natalie Golovin"<[email protected]> Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM Subject: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.
From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th& 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power& powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds... _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Umm, hello. Who is Chris Nelson and why are you leaning on him? This guy has no authority whatsoever, but to humor you, I'll modulate the tone and say he simply has no authority that is readily apparent. Maybe you're lured by the authoritative tone in which he speaks. Maybe's he's cute. Maybe he comforts your insecurity when things get a little heated, I don't know. It's a mystery that you bring him up at all because it tips your hand that you don't know what your talking about and propagating old "canards" (how hilarious) to continue to assuage the possible guilt you really don't want to face. If you want him to speak for you, perhaps you can just give him my email and you can continue on with your ideology unhindered by responsibility. cheers, marcos On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Chris Nelson Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare, isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and never implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North America were entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion, not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the federal government was administering them), but they were hardly concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive: plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more brutality than we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not routinely enslave and torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable dent.
-----"Natalie Golovin" <[email protected]> wrote: -----
To: "Chris Nelson" <[email protected]> From: "Natalie Golovin" <[email protected]> Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM Subject: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.
From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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Your mail said nothing-no points whatsoever. I have been attacked by several people- even after attempting to end an unproductive dialogue. And you're complaining because I got sick of answering numbskull remarks and forwarded a mail to someone who is not on the P2P list (OMG) Chris has a Masters in Western American History and degrees in Philosophy and Economics from UCSD. I now see P2P is populated by Leftist idiots who claim moral supremacy but have problems with a simple conversation. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Janssen Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 2:56 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Fw: Info Umm, hello. Who is Chris Nelson and why are you leaning on him? This guy has no authority whatsoever, but to humor you, I'll modulate the tone and say he simply has no authority that is readily apparent. Maybe you're lured by the authoritative tone in which he speaks. Maybe's he's cute. Maybe he comforts your insecurity when things get a little heated, I don't know. It's a mystery that you bring him up at all because it tips your hand that you don't know what your talking about and propagating old "canards" (how hilarious) to continue to assuage the possible guilt you really don't want to face. If you want him to speak for you, perhaps you can just give him my email and you can continue on with your ideology unhindered by responsibility. cheers, marcos On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Chris Nelson Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
The old canard about diseased blankets: a tactic used in a few rare, isolated incidents, widely condemned at the time by everyone and never implemented as a general policy. And the loaded term "genocide" implies a conscious, concerted decision to annihilate an entire people, when in fact white-Indian conflicts in North America were entirely local or regional in nature, and Indian tribes frequently allied with the whites to dispossess rival tribes of land (e.g., Custer's scouts were Crows, who hated the Sioux more than the whites). Early federal policy, such as it was, was expulsion, not annihilation, and when westward expansion ran its course, the reservation system. Many reservations were indeed bad (after all, the federal government was administering them), but they were hardly concentration camps explicitly designed to systematically kill the inhabitants; they were meant to confine militant, nomadic peoples from ranging over occupied, cultivated land. Those Indians that were dealt with most harshly were the ones that were the most aggressive: plundering stock, killing settlers, etc. The ones who gave up their previously aggressive ways, like the Navajo, were pretty much left alone. The Indians treated each other with considerably more brutality than we treated them (think "Apocalypto"): unlike Indians, North Americans did not routinely enslave and torture. The comparison with South America is nonsensical: The Spanish and Portuguese had no interest in colonization, only in extracting mineral resources; there was thus no massive transplanted population of farmers vying for control of they land. And they were far more inhumane than the Anglo-Saxons, but simply lacked numerical superiority to make a sizable dent.
-----"Natalie Golovin" <[email protected]> wrote: -----
To: "Chris Nelson" <[email protected]> From: "Natalie Golovin" <[email protected]> Date: 10/23/2011 08:05AM Subject: Fw: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
I’m exhausted-help me with an answer to this please.
From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
Hi Nalatie,
I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and oppression.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tributary systems, the farmers were usually kept in place.
Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.
Michel
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned earlier-people live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant land left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from Central America to move in and "homestead" The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There were also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with this subject mp READ
-----Original Message----- From: mp Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin argues they should be open?
On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
Agreed-that was easy.
-----Original Message----- From: Kevin Carson Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<[email protected]> wrote:
Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of interplay among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today. I already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The interactions were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century (Big exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English migrants interacted very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about when economic& political forces join hands.
Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis. What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds, wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were usually amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using -- I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican national might like to move onto.
As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my Hard Left friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about school, get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls value family and love more than future prospects of good jobs& I think that's fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of years& understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully girls like that into having abortions against their own judgment or inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum: the world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day and minded their own goddamned business.
-- NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
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participants (3)
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Mark Janssen -
mp -
Natalie Golovin